Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Pantheon ad Lucem/archive1

Pantheon ad Lucem[edit]

Featured article candidates/Pantheon ad Lucem/archive1

Nominator(s): ♠PMC♠ (talk) 05:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I return to you with another of McQueen's lesser works, the restrained (and frequently misspelled) Pantheon ad Lucem. Like his later collection Neptune, it drew on Ancient Greece with a side of science fiction. McQueen pulled back on the runway shenanigans for Pantheon to focus on design. Critics expected bombast, and reception was consequently mixed; one reviewer complained that the exaggerated hourglass dresses that finished the show made the models look like "Scandinavian- designed salt and pepper shakers." In retrospect, the collection suffers for its placement between two of his absolute bangers - Deliverance and It's Only a Game. Nevertheless, it should be remembered for its beautiful draped garments and artful use of fabric. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 05:33, 11 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Comments[edit]

"Inspired by ideas of rebirth, Ancient Greek garments" - "ancient" doesn't need a capital mid-sentence
- Oop, I always forget that
In the "concept" section, you don't need to say all of "Pantheon ad Lucem[a] (Autumn/Winter 2004) is the twenty-fourth collection by British designer Alexander McQueen for his eponymous fashion house." as you already introduced him and his house in the previous section. Shorten to "Pantheon ad Lucem[a] (Autumn/Winter 2004) was McQueen's twenty-fourth collection for his eponymous fashion house." And move the link to Alexander McQueen (fashion house) to the point where you mentioned it in the previous section.
- Fixed
"historicism was typical for McQueen." - historicism was already linked above, no need to link again. I also see Doctor Who, Domenico De Sole and eveningwear linked multiple times. Check for overlinking generally
- Rm and fixed sentence a bit, as well as trimming the wording of the second De Sole mention. Eveningwear link fixed but I left the second Dr Who link as it's a different section and far enough away
"Booth Moore for the Los Angeles Times felt designers in general " => "Booth Moore for the Los Angeles Times felt that designers in general "
"that he didn't know" => "that he did not know"
- Both above revised
Note a isn't a complete sentence so it doesn't need a full stop
- Fixed
That's what I got :-) -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 16:50, 12 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Thanks for your comments ChrisTheDude! All responded. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 02:12, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support -- ChrisTheDude (talk) 07:25, 13 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Aoba47[edit]

I would recommend adding WP:ALT text for File:McQueen, Musée des beaux-arts - 36 (cropped to Pantheon).jpg.
- Done
I have a question about this part, (at the Grande halle de la Villette, Paris). Would it be more beneficial to say something like (at the Grande halle de la Villette in Paris) to clarify in the prose that this is a building in Paris? I have not really seen buildings presented this way when discussed with their cities.
For this part, (In contrast to his usually-bombastic presentations, the show), I think it would read better if you say McQueen's instead of his. Something about starting with the pronoun in a new paragraph reads a bit off at least to me.
- Above both done
It might be helpful to make the quote box in the "Background" section a bit thicker to avoid any potential interference with the following section depending on how readers access and view the article.
- Upped from 25 to 30%
The second paragraph of the "Background" section has multiple sentences in a row starting with a year or a set of years. If possible, I'd try to change at least one instance of this to avoid the prose from appearing like a listing of dates and events. I could just be over-thinking this though so feel free to disagree as it is rather minor.
- I made a couple tries at writing around this but I couldn't find anything I liked. If this one isn't a sticking point for you, I think I'm going to leave it as is.

These are my comments for the lead and "Background" section. Apologies for doing a more piece-meal approach to this one. I unfortunately do not have the time today to thoroughly read and review the full article, but I wanted to at least get started. I do not see anything major, and my comments are mostly nitpicks. Aoba47 (talk) 21:58, 16 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

New rule, no more apologies between friends :)

As noted above, the "ancient" in this part, (from the loosely draped style of Ancient Greek garments), does not need to be capitalized. I did not see any other instances, but it may be worth double-checking to just make sure.
- Oops, fixed
I would attribute the following sentence: (These items may also have been influenced by Tunisian designer Azzedine Alaïa.) Since it is discussing something that may be an influence, I would clarify in the prose who made this interpretation.
- Done
I have a clarification question about this part, (and eyes slanted artificially with invisible tape). Did any critics discuss these slanted eyes in the context of Asian stereotypes (i.e. people making fun of Asians by pulling back their eyes)?
- No one mentioned this. My guess is that because of the styling, it wasn't taken as referencing Asian people.
Apologies in advance for the silly question, but is it "eveningwear" or "evening wear"? I thought it was two words, but you would have more knowledge in this field and I actually do not think I have ever seen it written down before.
- SchroCat says it's two words in British English, and he's my north star in that department, so I've tweaked that

That should be everything. Once all my comments have been addressed, I will read through the article a few more times to make sure I have not missed anything. It was a fun and engaging read. Best of luck with the FAC! Aoba47 (talk) 15:48, 17 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comments Aoba! Always appreciate it. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 07:46, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for addressing everything. I support this FAC for promotion. Aoba47 (talk) 16:54, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

SC
Lead

The OED has "eveningwear" as two words, not one (also repeated a few times in the body)
- Corrected throughout
Estonian model Tiiu Kuik: Does her nationality matter?
- I guess not

Concept

You give the incorrect translations, but not the correct one...
- Interestingly and annoyingly, I've never found anyone who tries to account for which of the several senses of "Pantheon" McQueen is going for here. It's entirely possible he was just sticking cool-sounding foreign words together and didn't have a particular meaning in mind. I could add the various possible translations into the footnote if you think that's useful.
  - I think it translates as "pantheon to light" (which would also explain the styling of the runway). UndercoverClassicist would be able to confirm or correct the point as necessary. I think the correct translation is more important than the mistranslations, as far as the article text goes, and would counsel for keeping it in the body, but your call. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 07:58, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

If the intended meaning is "to light" (in the sense of "a monument to heroism"), it's not great Latin: ad like this should really mean "towards".

Probably the most intuitive translation of the words as written is "Pantheon towards the light" (Latin doesn't have a word for 'the', so it's added to nouns as needed in English), but I must admit that doesn't make much sense to me.

I suspect he was going for "Pantheon" in the sense of a temple rather than the usual sense of a collection of gods? UndercoverClassicist ^T·C 10:01, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm hesitant to assume a translation, because it's impossible to know what sense of the word pantheon McQueen was going for and it's not clear from context. The real problem is that no sources directly address the discrepancy. The closest thing I have to anyone acknowledging it is Fairer & Wilcox saying that the title "included the Latin for 'towards the light'" (my emphasis). Most other sources uncritically say something like "Pantheon ad Lucem, translated as 'towards the light'" and don't comment further. I assume they're thinking something like "oh, this Latin phrase has three words and the English translation has three words, that checks out", not considering that translation isn't always a one to one situation. So we have a situation where I think we can fairly say "many people are not translating this fully" but not one where we can go so far as to say "and here's the full translation". ♠PMC♠ (talk) 10:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Production details

'Alternately, they can be seen as "the base of a hovering starship"': As this is an opinion, it's probably best to attribute it directly to the writer
- Done
"famously": probably best to delete this one
- Done
"makeup" is hyphenated in BrEng
- fixed

Catwalk

Estonian model Tiiu Kuik: Again, does her nationality matter?
- Removed

Negative

"Scandinavian- designed": is there meant to be a space there?
- Oh, nope, removed

That's my lot. Another very enjoyable read, for which I thank you. - SchroCat (talk) 10:08, 18 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Cheers! Thanks as always for the review. Glad you're still enjoying the series. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 07:46, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Support. Only the translation point is outstanding, but whichever pathway you choose will be fine. Cheers - SchroCat (talk) 07:58, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I'll see what UC says and go from there. ♠PMC♠ (talk) 08:08, 19 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support Comments from JennyOz[edit]

Hello PMC, an enjoyable and evocative article. I have a few comments and questions...

top

order needs tweaking to - short des / italic title / good / eng and date
- Done

Concept and creative process

who specialised in bias-cut dresses cut to loosely drape and wrap around the body - avoid 2x cut? Something like 'who specialised in dresses bias-cut to loosely drape and wrap'
- switched "cut to" to "meant to"
including tweed suits and fur coats - link tweed
- Done
Look 54 echoed the gaping neckline in a design with elements of Tudor period clothing - that article has a link to the clothes they wore which illustrates the neckline. Swap link?
- Swapped link, but to the main article, not right to the gallery
made from real feathers - why "real"?
- As opposed to artificial feathers
delaying the collection's production.[1] McQueen called the orchid dresses "pivotal" to the collection's presentation.[1] Because of the production issues with the orchid prints, the collection was delayed - repetition "delaying the collection's" and "collection was delayed". Maybe change last sentence to 'Because of the production issues with the orchid prints, the collection ~~was delayed and~~ did not leave the production facility in Italy until nearly two days before the show.'
- God, what an ugly string of sentences that was. I've revised entirely to cut the redundancy.

Runway show

at the Grande halle de la Villette, Paris - in Paris
- Fixed
PPR president Francois-Henri Pinault, PPR chairman Serge Weinberg, - could remove second PPR
- Done
Alternately, author Judith Watt - For "Alternately" a better word might be 'Alternatively' ie (another choice) as opposed to 'taking turns'?
- Removed entirely, the sentence works without it
Also sprach Zarathustra - the fanfare's name is "Sunrise" per Also sprach Zarathustra#Structure. Do refs not mention its name?
- Not the ones I'm using to ref its appearance in the show. I could get an outside ref for the name and put it in the text, but it doesn't seem that important
used in Stanley Kubrick's 1968 film 2001: A Space Odyssey. - remove (film) from pipe per twice above
- Oop yea
The 1980 Kate Bush song - link Bush?
- Done
"Orchid" shoulder-piece that accompanied the final look - "accompanied" sounds to me as a minor accessory whereas looking at its photos at V&A it's a spectacular part of the whole. Would "that featured in the final look" be too strong?
- No, that's better
wore an evening gown in light grey tulle - hyphen light-grey, link Tulle (netting)?
- I don't think the color gets hyphenated? SchroCat, any BrEng input here? Tulle linked though.
  - Ah, not an Engvar thing but per MOS:HYPHEN "Compounds that are hyphenated when used attributively (adjectives before the nouns they qualify: a light-blue handbag, a 34-year-old woman)..." JennyOz (talk) 05:28, 23 May 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Reception Positive

Michael Fink, a market director for Saks Fifth Avenue, told WWD that he - WWD is not explained until section Retrospective - move full name and link up to here?
- Oop yup, consequence of revamping
be similarly figure-hugging.[52] Similarly, in her review - 2x similarly a bit close?
- Fixed
financial backers at Gucci Group that - twice above it is Gucci group
- Made capitlized consistently

Negative

Booth felt many designs were - Moore felt
- Aargh I thought I got all of those

Retrospective

12th-highest pageviews at Style.com for the - article doesn't use italics?
- Per MOS:WEBITALIC, it should be if it's basically a work of journalism (I'm paraphrasing), which Style.com was
McQueen told Harper's Bazaar in August 2004 that was unsure - missing 'he' after "that"
- Fixed
journalist Dana Thomas omits - link her?

Analysis and legacy

One dress and one pair of boots from Pantheon appeared in the 2022 exhibition Lee Alexander McQueen: Mind, Mythos, Muse. - the dress in the top image was in a separate staging ie 2023 but was it the same dress?
- Yeah, it was.
Curators described it as an example - what does "it" refer to here? Pantheon or their exhibition?
- It's either that specific dress or the whole collection, but I don't have the Mythos book back until tomorrow, so I'll have to wait to check
  - It was that particular dress and another not from Pantheon and not pictured in this article.
The orchid shoulder-piece sold for $43,750 - format per others ie "Orchid" shoulder-piece ?
- Done

Misc consistency

adverbial hyphens - "usually-bombastic", "highly-structured", "heavily-decorated", "strongly-positive", "commercially-viable" v most without eg "tightly curled hair", "heavily beaded", etc
- de-hyphenated
science fiction hyphens - "science fiction films" (x3) and "science fiction show" v "science-fiction elements" (x2) and "science-fiction roots"
- de-hyphenated

Quote boxes

(interesting current discussion at VPP) - did you consider adding coloured backgrounds?
- If it's all the same to you, I don't like colored backgrounds for quote boxes

Visual Editor quirks?

Maybe not specifically an FA compliance issue but I am trying to understand what VE does...

Unnecessarily piped links - eg [[Fashion show|fashion shows]] and [[Star Trek|''Star Trek'']] and [[Wig|wigs]] - are these a quirk of Visual Editor? There are about 14 of these. They render and link okay of course but look strange in edit mode especially when many other links don't have the duplication.

And this: (2022)''.'' italics on a full stop? Why does VE do that?

- Yes, they're a VE quirk. Someone usually shows up and fixes them with a script, so I rarely bother fixing it manually especially as it doesn't make a difference in the rendered page.

References - duplicates (maybe this a VE thing too?)

Refs 1 and 57 Armstrong, Lisa
Refs 24 and 48 Limnander, Armand
Refs 25 and 54 Todd, Stephen
Refs 26 and 27 and 47 Friedman, Vanessa
- Yeah, I think it's a VE thing; now fixed