Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Nadezhda Alliluyeva/archive1

The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Ian Rose via FACBot (talk) 22 July 2022 [1].

Nadezhda Alliluyeva

Nominator(s): Kaiser matias (talk) 16:35, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The second wife of Joseph Stalin, Nadezhda Alliluyeva had a tragic life. Though quite a driven person in her own right, she was forced to temper her goals to appease Stalin, leading to an unhappy life. She died at an early age, and while she likely committed suicide there is some questions about that. Her death had a profound effect on Stalin, who once again lost a wife at a relatively young age. The article went through GA some time ago, and a peer review, and now I think it's ready for here. Kaiser matias (talk) 16:35, 11 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Image review

File:Stalin_in_exile_1915.jpg: the given tag relies on "known author" for Russian copyright and pre-1927 publication for US - is there evidence for either of those?
Is there no image of the subject available? Nikkimaria (talk) 00:35, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For the Stalin image, nothing I can reliably confirm at this time. And honestly with the lack of an image for the subject, I feel it may be better to not have one of him only (I feel it diminishes Alliluyeva's standing as an individual, rather than just being someone's wife). As for Alliluyeva herself, there was one image used previously but it's since been deleted on Commons as it's availability has not been confirmed (I've certainly tried). Kaiser matias (talk) 04:18, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have added an image. It is non-free, but it should satisfy all license requirements. MarcusTraianus (talk) 14:19, 12 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

This will need a more expansive FUR, and suggest using {{non-free biog-pic}} instead of the current tag. Nikkimaria (talk) 03:54, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Nikkimaria: It is done.

The tag change is done - the FUR still needs work. And what was the decision around the Stalin image? Nikkimaria (talk) 12:50, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

(outdent) Sorry missed the comment about the Stalin image. The source image lists a 1940 publication, so that doesn't match the tag (unknown photographer, so no proof they died before 1942). Kaiser matias (talk) 18:46, 26 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Perhaps we could use File:Doctored Stalin-Lenin (cropped)(b).jpg or the similar File:Doctored Stalin-Lenin (cropped).jpg? This image is from the time they were married and has much better free use tagging, with a known author and known date of publication. --RL0919 (talk) 20:34, 27 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks that should definitely work. Kaiser matias (talk) 23:26, 28 June 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Looks like the FUR is still pending here. Nikkimaria (talk) 02:42, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@MarcusTraianus: seeing how you added the image, are you able to assist here? Kaiser matias (talk) 16:07, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Kaiser matias: okay, I will add what is needed. Would be glad to see an example how to properly do it in order not to rework it thousand times. MarcusTraianus (talk) 16:10, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Kaiser matias: I did it. If it is still needs to be reworked, ping me, I will answer. MarcusTraianus (talk) 16:27, 17 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your help, I do appreciate it. Kaiser matias (talk) 01:48, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Dudley

"Alliluyeva had several health issues, which combined with her suspicions that her husband was unfaithful led to frequent arguments with him." This seems a non-sequitur. Why should her health issues have led to arguments?

My understanding is it exacerbated a strained relationship, but I broke the sentence into two to make it more separate.

"shot herself the night of 9 November 1932" Below you say early in the morning of.

Fixed the lead. It was the night of 8–9 November, but consensus is she died on the 9th.

"born in 1907 to Stalin's first wife, Kato Svanidze, who died of typhus in 1907" Perhaps "died of typhus later in the same year" to avoid repeating 1907.

Fixed

"moved to Moscow, joining other Bolshevik leaders as the capital was transferred there". Maybe add from St Petersberg.

Good point, and added note to clarify the changing name of the city.

"Zhemchuzhina trailed after her". Trailed is not a good word here. It means to trudge wearily, which I assume is not what you mean.

Is "followed" better you think

Yes better. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:01, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Looks fine. Just a few minor queries. Dudley Miles (talk) 14:01, 5 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Dudley Miles: Thanks for taking a look. Addressed everything here, but if you think of anything else just let me know. Kaiser matias (talk) 02:55, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support. Dudley Miles (talk) 09:01, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Support by Borsoka

I peer reviewed the article a couple of weeks ago. I think it almost fully met FA criteria and it has been improved since then. My only concern is about sourcing. Can we accept Svetlana Alliluyeva's work as a reliable source of her mother's life? Sorry, for not raising this issue during the peer review. Borsoka (talk) 11:35, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Her book has been cited by other scholars (and I think is cited in nearly every biography of Stalin used here), but that is a fair question, and if it is considered too much of a primary source I am happy to go through and replace/remove it as need be. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:03, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I think it would be in line with our sourcing policy if the references to her daughter's work would be strengthened by references to independent sources. Borsoka (talk) 04:52, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fair point. I will need a couple days to get a few books that I don't personally have, but the local university library has, to get additional citations, but should have that done by the weekend. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:57, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Borsoka: I replaced all but one reference to Svetlana's memoir (one about Nadezhda's father's languages growing up), but I added a qualifier in the article that it comes from the memoir. That should hopefully be enough to address any primary source concerns. Kaiser matias (talk) 01:48, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thank you. Now I support this FAC. Borsoka (talk) 01:53, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Much appreciated, thank you. Kaiser matias (talk) 23:15, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by Edwininlondon

I made a few minor edits. Please revert if I made a mistake. I just have a few comments and questions on prose:

Questions about her name: some sources also refer to her as Nadia. Should Nadia not appear somewhere in the article? The book "Stalin’s Daughter" says "Jospeh and Nadezhda ("Nadya") Stalin", suggesting she took his name. Perhaps this should be mentioned somwhere?

Good point, I made a note in the lead

escaped Russia (August 1917) --> perhaps "escaped Russia in August"

Done

reportedly once having saved her from drowning when she was 2 years old --> do we need that "once"?

No, removed

over the course of the summer --> even if they met 1 August, that's already halfway through the summer

True, and while the source has similar wording, I modified it to be more reflective of the reality.

Life and career --> not sure this is the best section name, it doesn't sit nicely next to Early life

How about "Later life and career"? If not I'm open to any suggestions, certainly not set on anything.

Yes, that's better

expelled from the Party --> I think this is too cryptic, the name of the party should be given, probably earlier on, perhaps where you mention the Soviet Union is established and lenin is the leader

Clarified the Party, should be enough no?

OK

In 1921, the family also took in Artyom Sergeyev --> too similar in structure to previous sentence, try to combine or rephrase

Done

and though his mother was still alive the boy was raised --> comma after alive

Done

the smiles disappears --> singular or plural?

Singular, fixed.

"terrible depressions," --> "terrible depressions",

Fixed

"couple of abortions which were never attended to." --> ". as per MOS:INOROUT

Fixed

Pravda, the Communist Party newspaper --> I find it odd that now, after so many instances of referring to the Communist Part with just Party, here is the fuller name. Consistency would be better. I;'m no expert but as a layman I would expect Communist Party to be used throughout, not Party.

There is a tendency to simply refer to it as "the Party" in the literature, as it was the only one. I dropped the "Communist" applier here, both because of your point and as the name of the Party officially changed in 1925, it just causes confusion. I hope that is good though

OK

some isbn are 10, some are 13. I'm afraid they should be in consistent format. [tool] can help.

I used what the books themselves have, and far as I can tell there's no requirement to change them all over to 13, no? If not I think it would be best to keep the originals, no?

At half my FACs I have been asked to do this, but I believe you are right that there is no requirement. (WP:MOS-BIBLIO probably only by accident uses only isbn-10 in their examples)

Interesting article. Thank you. Edwininlondon (talk) 11:40, 10 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the review, I've addressed everything (with two queries above), but if you have anything else please let me know. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:31, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Al. fine. I Support on prose. Edwininlondon (talk) 06:15, 11 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your review, and support. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:53, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments by caeciliusinhorto

I read this when it was at peer review and it looked good then. A couple further comments from me:

Do we know anything more about Alliluyeva's expulsion from the party in 1921? It seems extraordinary that Stalin's wife and Lenin's secretary would be expelled from the party at this point – was it part of an internal power struggle, or Stalin's attempt to further control her, or what?

I added context from the Khlevniuk book, which notes a possible issue.

"In 1921, the family also took in Stalin's first son, Yakov Dzhugashvili" – can we quickly mention where Yakov had been since his mother died?

Added that as well.

That's all that I have – otherwise looking very good. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 08:00, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I made adjustments for both things here. Kaiser matias (talk) 23:14, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Coordinator comment

Nearly four weeks in and just the single general support. Unless this nomination attracts further interest over the next two or three days I am afraid that it is liable to be archived. Gog the Mild (talk) 14:37, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Pinging Mike Christie and Tim riley. Dudley Miles (talk) 14:54, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I can't promise being able to look at this soon -- I am trying to resolve a technical issue with my Wikimedia developer account with what little time I have for Wikipedia at the moment. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:58, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll look in over the weekend. Tim riley talk 18:39, 7 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Apologies for dereliction. I'll look in as soon as I can, but typing is going to be difficult for some days while I have my right hand in plaster, dammit. I hope the coordinators will allow a bit of extra time in this case. Tim riley talk 16:25, 13 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

All good, and hope the hand gets better. As I noted above, I may need to get into the weekend to modify some sources anyways, so Coords can you keep this open to allow that? Kaiser matias (talk) 00:58, 14 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review

The edition of Twenty Letters... cited is probably too early for an ISBN; did you use a reprint?

Sources all look reliable; no formatting errors. The above is the only issue I can see. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 00:22, 15 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Correct on the "Twenty Letters"; I updated it to the version used. Also note I'm currently trying to reduce/remove reference to that: as per the discussion above it was written by the daughter of Alliluyeva so may be too much of a :primary source. I'm waiting on one final book to be ready, hoping it will be done by the end of the weekend. Kaiser matias (talk) 04:16, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I'll hold off on marking this as a pass until you make that change; ping me when the book is added and I'll sign off on the source review. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 07:50, 16 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Mike Christie: I've finished now. One new source was added (the Ebon book) for reference. Kaiser matias (talk) 01:48, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Source review passes. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 10:35, 18 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Comments Support from Tim riley

Not much from me. My first impression was this was on the short side for a biographical FA, but after three perusals I find it looks pretty comprehensive. The lead, too, struck me as on the short side, but, again, after careful rereading I can't find anything that should be in there and isn't.

Just a handful of minor drafting points:

Olga's father initially wanted her to marry one of his friend's sons, however she refused to accept the arrangement – if you must have "however" you need a stronger stop than a comma. It would flow better if you used "but" instead, in my view.

Changed

Bolsheviks, a Russian revolutionary group at their home – needs a comma after group

Done

Her family frequently hosted Party members – not sure about the capital P. The MoS is not big on capital letters for common nouns.

I changed that and all other uses to lowercase

Stalin's involvement in the Civil War meant he was rarely around – around where?

Cleared up to mean he wasn't home often

Stalin would holiday along the Black Sea – unexpected preposition – one might expect "by" or some such.

Cleared up to be the coast.

That's all from me. This article seems to me full, informative and well written. I look forward to supporting its promotion to FA. – Tim riley talk 15:03, 21 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks made the necessary adjustments. Kaiser matias (talk) 00:10, 22 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

From a final rereading I can find nothing to prevent my supporting the promotion of the article to FA. It shows every sign of being comprehensive, as far as I can see, is a good read, seems balanced and neutral, and has good sourcing and citation. Happy to support. Tim riley talk 08:53, 22 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Closing note: This candidate has been promoted, but there may be a delay in bot processing of the close. Please see WP:FAC/ar, and leave the {{featured article candidates}} template in place on the talk page until the bot goes through. Ian Rose (talk) 14:07, 22 July 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.