Wikipedia:Featured article candidates/Killer7/archive3

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following is an archived discussion of a featured article nomination. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the article's talk page or in Wikipedia talk:Featured article candidates. No further edits should be made to this page.

The article was promoted by Karanacs 19:35, 28 October 2010 [1].

Killer7[edit]

Killer7 (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views)

Toolbox
Nominator(s): Axem Titanium (talk) 20:57, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I am nominating this for featured article because I feel that it meets the FAC criteria. Axem Titanium (talk) 20:57, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment—no dab links, no dead external links. Ucucha 21:17, 27 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - As far as I can tell, there are no dab links and no dead external links, the lead looks perfect and all of the article's sections are adequately covered in appropriate lengths. Sjones23 (talk - contributions) 00:34, 28 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: More print reviews for this game are available at the online print archive. Mentioning this now, should they prove necessary during the nomination. JimmyBlackwing (talk) 08:20, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: Images are all good. J Milburn (talk) 14:08, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, taking a read through.

  • "the killer7 uncover a deeper conspiracy regarding the role of Japan in US politics and discover the true nature of the killer7 group." The descover the true nature of themself? Is it that they are all one guy? This could be clearer.
  • "the player may choose which path to take.[1] The player" Repetition. I know it's difficult to avoid, but it does jar a little.
  • "the surroundings to reveals any Smiles." Typo?
  • "gentleman" Not sure if there's anything in the MOS about this, but I think "man" would be more appropriate. In the same way, we say "died" rather than "passed away".
  • "exhibits the fictional "Multifoliate Personae Phenomenon"." Fictional in the game world? If you just mean fictional, I think the quote marks express that.
  • "Celtic Building" What is this, precisely?
  • "Union Hotel" in the US, presumably?
    • What do you mean? Axem Titanium (talk) 17:20, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • Is this in the US, or Japan, or what? J Milburn (talk) 16:16, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • In the process of addressing the concern two below, I mentioned that it was a Union Hotel in Pennsylvania. So it's in the US. :) Axem Titanium (talk) 22:23, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "in 1780.[16][15][5]" Order the refs?
  • "Emir Parkreiner, the one who killed the killer7 at the Union Hotel over 50 years ago" Sorry, what? I thought they were killed by all sorts of people? Was Dan Smith not killed by Curtis Blackburn, for instance?
    • This is a pretty tricky issue and there's a lot of backstory that isn't super relevant to the overall story. I tried to clarify this without getting bogged down in the nitty gritty details. Axem Titanium (talk) 19:22, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "absorbed him as a persona" Who? Emir?
  • "they destroy Japan's last stronghold, Battleship Island, in retaliation." He can see the future?
    • No, that's just the consequence of the player's choice, which is shown shortly after the choice is made. Is it not clear at present? Axem Titanium (talk) 17:20, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • I think a mention of artyness in the lead would be good- until I got to development, I was imagining just another dumb shooter.
    • I added a few adjectives, not sure if it helps enough. I also mention "arthouse" in the lead. Axem Titanium (talk) 18:39, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Virtually all aspects of the game have their proponents and detractors." That's an odd line. OR-y? Weasel words? Non-neutral? I'm not really sure, but I'm not sure it should be there.
    • I intended it as an introduction to that paragraph which shows how multiple reviewers commented on the same aspects both positively and negatively. Axem Titanium (talk) 17:20, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "the latter.[2][1][39]" Order the refs? (Sorry, doesn't bother me, but I know it annoys some)
  • "limited appeal.[3][1]"
  • "naming it GameCube's Best Game No One Played in their 2005 awards" You've just said this
    • Yes, but I think it bears repeating since previously, it was mentioned in a long list and easily lost. Axem Titanium (talk) 17:20, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "In 2007, Grasshopper Manufacture released No More Heroes to critical and commercial success" Sorry, what's this got to do with anything?
    • It continues the previous idea of killer7's role in promoting Suda51's games outside Japan. Axem Titanium (talk) 17:20, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Killer7 Original Sound Track" Why the bold?
  • Perhaps it would be worth mentioning who did the music to the game itself in the development section?
    • As far as I can tell, the music wasn't hugely influential on overall game design. If I were to move the composer's comments to the development section, it would leave the soundtrack section really bare. Unless you just mean a mention in the development section? Axem Titanium (talk) 17:20, 30 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • "Preorders of Killer7 through EB Games included "Issue #0", and "Issue #1/2" was available at the 2005 San Diego Comic-Con." I don't think that makes sense.

Hope this helps. J Milburn (talk) 14:39, 29 September 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Sources comments: I reviewed the sources at this article's August FAC. Several issues were satisfactorily resolved; I left a couple of reliability issues open for further discussion. Both of these have been replaced in the current version. I can only find one little consistency nitpick (which I missed last time round): Ref 45 shows a volume no. for Nintendo Power and no date, while ref 38 shows a date but no volume number. Both refs show "pp." instead of "p." for a single page. Otherwise, all refs and citations look OK. Brianboulton (talk) 18:39, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for pointing that out. I standardized all the print references because I just discovered that I like cite news better than cite journal (is a video game magazine really a "journal"?). Axem Titanium (talk) 22:23, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Marking as placeholder. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 20:40, 1 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sorry, reality check. Are you still working on this? If so, take your time. Axem Titanium (talk) 21:36, 5 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sorry for the wait, I've been hustling some projects. Anyhow, leaning support:
    • It occurs to me we should explain why the heck there are Japanese characters right by the name, something like "Killer7 (known in Japan as キラー7 Kirāsebun)" or something.
      • This is the same debate about whether Japanese (or foreign) video games should have a mention of their name in the original language, if they mean the exact same thing. Kirāsebun is literally just Kirā = killer, sebun = seven. I honestly don't care either way on this issue. I'll add "known in Japan as" if it makes you happy. Axem Titanium (talk) 01:22, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "The player controls the on-screen character" --> If you're going to refer to the "player character" later on, you need to make it clear to the readers that the on-screen and player character are the same.
      • I eliminated instances of "player character" in text, but I left the link in case a reader is curious and wants to learn about proper terminology. Axem Titanium (talk) 01:22, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The placement of the final sections seems odd. The legacy section sums up the ending bits nicely, including discussing the release of a comic book and soundtrack, then it talks about them again. Perhaps moving these up would help?
      • Perhaps your input on this decision would be helpful. I considered moving "Music" and "Comic book" up to a large heading called "Related media" which would be directly below "Development", leaving "Legacy" as a third level heading under "Reception". However, the problem is that that leaves the Hand in killer7 book and the figurines without a nice place to stay. There's not enough info to justify an intro paragraph to the "Related media" section, so it'd just be two dinky little sentences. It might also leave the legacy paragraph a little on the short side as well. Axem Titanium (talk) 01:22, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • The plot section seems like it could be trimmed, coming off a little too "blow-by-blow" and impinging on readability.
      • Where are some problem spots you could identify? Killer7 is divided into semi-contained chapters and my intent with this section was to condense all the less relevant chapters into the first paragraph and focus only the two main-plot-relevant chapters (the other three paragraphs). I trimmed some sentences that weren't critical to overall understanding including... (see below). Axem Titanium (talk) 01:22, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • "an IEC spy had stolen the Yakumo" so this mention and all subsequent mentions are talking about the piece of paper? Why's this so important, exactly?
      • It's not. I removed instances of the IEC spy subplot. Axem Titanium (talk) 01:22, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        • What about "However, an assassin posing as Fukushima's secretary kills him first in an attempt to reclaim the Yakumo for the Liberal Party"? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 16:53, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
          • I'd say leaving it in is easier to justify than omitting it, because otherwise, the assassin kills him for no explained reason. It's important to the backstory because it sets the events of the game in motion, but how exactly it does this would be way too complicated to include in the article. I tried to allude to its importance and establish its desirability in the Setting section ("The UN Party owes its success to the Yakumo") so I could mention it later as a motivation for killing Fukushima. Axem Titanium (talk) 18:29, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
            • My issue is that I don't understand why you have to reclaim the Yakumo... is this plan secret or something, and that's why? The motivation isn't clear. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 18:38, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
              • The "Yakumo Cabinet Policy" is a document that was devised by Toru Fukushima, who is the President of the Japan section of the UN Party. (The Japan section essentially rules and controls the UN.) He made the document after a number of nuclear missiles were fired at Japan from an unknown location. He is hoping that the document will convince the US to use their Fireworks anti-missile defense system and destroy the missiles before they hit and wipe out Japan. While Toru is explaining this to Harman Smith, Toru's assistant, Julia Kisugi, shoots Toru in the head. It turns out that Julia is an assassin sent by the minority Liberal Party of the UN to retrieve the Yakumo document. The Liberal Party wishes to overthrown the ruling majority Japanese UN party and, to do so, they need Japan to be destroyed, which is why they want to make sure no one uses the Yakumo to convince the US to save Japan. Does that clear things up? SilverserenC 18:57, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
                • I added a bit more about why the Liberal Party wants it. Does that help? Axem Titanium (talk) 19:28, 8 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
                  • I understood the part you amended before. My query remains: why steal the Yakumo? The document itself? Was it never copied? Is it secret? Is that why they have to physically claim it? Or is it just that they want to reclaim the principles or something intangible? Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 17:49, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
                    • As far as I know, I believe it was the only copy of the document. And, with the death of the person who wrote it, there's no chance of another one being made. Even if there are other copies on, say, a backup drive or somewhere, it is doubtful that it would be retrieved in time for it to be shown to and convince the US to help before the missiles were timed to impact. In all likelihood, even if other copies exist, stealing that copy and killing the writer effectively dooms Japan. SilverserenC 17:53, 10 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
                      • Yeah, the game isn't super clear about that issue but it seems to be one of very few copies that exist and the principles detailed inside are not widely known outside of the UN Party leaders. Also remember that the Internet doesn't exist in this world so free flow of information is thwarted. I tried to emphasize the secret nature of the Yakumo in my latest edit. Axem Titanium (talk) 00:07, 11 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

--Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 00:20, 7 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]

                        • Ok, you made it much clearer now, thanks. I'll take a final look over the article tonight or tomorrow. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 23:19, 13 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: This is looking better- the plot section is still a little difficult to read in places (examples- tense shift in "They kill Andrei Ulmeyda, a Texan postal worker who founds a successful company based on the Yakumo, when he gets infected with the Heaven Smile virus" and repetition in "Union Hotel where he witnesses visions of the other members being killed in the hotel") and I note "61nbsp;compositions" which needs fixing. Why the non-breaking space anyway? J Milburn (talk) 10:19, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • Sorry if I look foolish, but what's wrong with the tense in that example? I'm actually not sure why it needs to be non-breaking since I didn't add it. I replaced it with a regular space... Axem Titanium (talk) 14:50, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      • It should be "founded", not "founds", in order to match the tense in the rest of the sentence. And "gets" should really be "became". SilverserenC 16:33, 9 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - bringing in my support from the previous FAC. --PresN 20:56, 12 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Looks good, excellent job working on the article. JJ98 (Talk) 18:44, 20 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support Sorry for the late response, I thought I chimed in before but I guess I didn't. Anyhow, looks comprehensive and meets the other criteria. Der Wohltemperierte Fuchs(talk) 23:00, 22 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  • Please see MOS:COLLAPSE, the article has collapsed content. SandyGeorgia (Talk) 23:13, 23 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    • I'm using {{track listing}} which specifically has a parameter that deals with collapsing. Since it's fully protected, I'm assuming that virtually all aspects of it have been discussed (7 archived talk pages) and have achieved consensus by Wikiproject Albums. Also, the MOS guideline says "Collapsible sections may be used in navboxes or infoboxes, or in tables which consolidate information covered in the prose" (emphasis mine). The content of the album is already covered in prose in that section and the collapsed tracklist consolidates the minutia (i.e. the names and lengths of every track). As for accessibility concerns, the template documentation notes that those without Javascript will just see the uncollapsed version. Axem Titanium (talk) 17:09, 24 October 2010 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive. Please do not modify it. No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Featured_article_candidates/Killer7/archive3&oldid=1078802223"