recently the page deleted from AFD , but iam not satisfied the AFD discussion because the article speedily deleted admin and previous 2016 AFD nominator at the same time this version came main space he put proposed deletion tag too , both are immediately voted for deletion
as well as while afd was going some one changing vote, especially admin Cryptic vote changed by some one then he edit his votes please see the history .https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Rt_Rana&action=history
and someone behind the scene hard working for deleting this article, i think same team may be previous hacked his facebook . because they have disabled this article first and second reliable sources article came AFD two references are not working
as well as while AFD was going time facebook hacked news removed from article , so that i did not vote but explain article notability for who was participating admin status .
afd discussion - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Rt_Rana
please dear gentleman kindly attention this case.
thanking you Rajuiu (talk) 16:17, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse deletion. Deletion review is a venue to handle cases where deletion process has been improperly followed. It is not a place to re-argue the AFD because you are "not satisfied" with it. A clear consensus was reached. Stifle (talk) 16:21, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse - closure was procedurally correct; one particularly passionate !voter cannot overcome the clear, policy-based consensus of all the others. The petitioner is advised to read WP:STICK. Extraordinary Writ (talk) 23:08, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse This article got another chance for community review, and the community has appropriately decided that it be deleted and create-protected, which is clearly within their purview. Jclemens (talk) 01:37, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
comments
dear gentleman three admins (Cryptic, Kuru, JGHowes ) are not the satisfied AFD while afd was going , because they knows someone trying too hard deleting this article from wikipedia. so that their comments very different, i can explain admin
1 .Cryptic comments
Not substantially different from RT Rana (AfD discussion), which I'm surprised DRV didn't even attempt to analyze
dear gentle man please see previous RT Rana artilce and this article.( huge different )
2. Kuru comments every source is junk
but he is the editing manager and he is removing unreliable sources while afd was going, finally 11 sources are here but how can tell all sources are junk
3 JGHowes closer
while AFD was closing Time he did not add Shushugah votes , he closed so he is not satisfied AFD . yesterday only he add Deletion review going time Shushugah votes.
see the histroy https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Rt_Rana&action=history
date - 31 march 2021 . but he closed 30 march 2021 note. -three admins are thinking Wikipedia need this article , and dear genteman please see the AFD Rajuiu (talk) 01:45, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse, and comment:
The close correctly reflects consensus.
This was a case of the gaming of article titles. Attempts to game the system should not be rewarded, and should not even be tolerated.
The salting was correct.
DRV is a content forum, but it may be necessary to go to WP:AN or WP:ANI if the appellant continues to try to bludgeon the process. A topic-ban may be in order.
Someone mucked about with that debate, trying to make it look like the "delete" votes were in bad faith. Such tactics should not be allowed to succeed. That's a clear and straightforward endorse from me.—S MarshallT/C 10:01, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
After discussing the close with Stifle on their talk page, I am of the conclusion that they mis-interpreted the policy at WP:NSPORT, which clearly states that WP:GNG has to be met here: In addition, the subjects of standalone articles should meet the General Notability Guideline. and confirmed in the 2017 RfC which I linked in the discussion here: [1]. Even though lots of users !voted keep, this should have been deleted for clearly failing WP:GNG. SportingFlyerT·C 15:38, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse own decision. As I explained to SportingFlyer on my talk page, they are selectively quoting WP:NSPORT, which also says The article should provide reliable sources showing that the subject meets the general notability guideline or the sport specific criteria set forth below. (emphasis not mine), Failing to meet the criteria in this guideline means that notability will need to be established in other ways (for example, the general notability guideline, and Subjects that do not meet the sport-specific criteria outlined in this guideline may still be notable if they meet the General Notability Guideline or another subject specific notability guideline.. Even the part that they selectively quoted uses "should meet" rather than the mandatory "must meet". It is abundantly clear, taking NSPORT as a whole, that it must be read as stating an article qualifies as notable if it either meets a sport-specific notability guideline (which this article does, and I do not understand that fact to be in dispute) or the general notability guideline, and my closure is therefore correct. As I advised SportingFlyer on my talk page, if they feel this should be changed, they should attempt to gather a consensus to make the change they would like at WT:NSPORT or elsewhere. Indeed, I have just discovered that such a discussion is ongoing at the moment, having started last weekend, and I suggest this DRV is premature and should be closed without prejudice. Stifle (talk) 15:44, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Your reasoning is still incorrect. The RfC I quoted specifically came to the conclusion that There is clear consensus that no subject-specific notability guideline, including Notability (sports) is a replacement for or supercedes the General Notability Guideline. Arguments must be more refined than simply citing compliance with a subguideline of WP:NSPORTS in the context of an Articles for Deletion discussion. The "should provide reliable sources" does not create an and/or with the SNG, and the second quoted sentence just says failing to meet the SNG criteria means you can still be notable if you meet GNG, not anything about SNG allowing an article. In order to have a sports bio, based on recent consensus AND the way NSPORT is written, you must meet GNG. I don't know why this has become disputed. Either I am unaware of the new discussion, or the mentioned discussion is not on point here. The DRV is not premature. SportingFlyerT·C 15:57, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Your reading of NSPORT is an extreme stretch from what the page actually says, and to the extent a 4-year old RFC reached a consensus, consensus may change over time and the guideline documents what current consensus is. Again, if you want to change policy to require GNG as well as SNG – which would render all SNGs otiose and be a considerable departure from long-term custom and practice on Wikipedia – the correct step to take is to gather a consensus to change it. The article should provide reliable sources showing that the subject meets the general notability guideline or the sport specific criteria set forth below – if the guideline said what you incorrectly think it does, the word "or" would be "and". Stifle (talk) 16:16, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I am not trying to change policy to require GNG as well as SNG across the entire project. I worked on drafting WP:SNG, which was subject to a lot of discussion, including that RfC; if you search the discussion for NSPORT, you can see that a) there's general discussion that the RfC was an overreach for all SNGs, but not for NSPORT, and that b) NSPORT does require GNG to be met, and the SNG just creates a rebuttable presumption. See, specifically, NewImpartial's comment at 20:00 on 9 December. SportingFlyerT·C 16:38, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
It's clear I won't be changing your viewpoint and you won't be changing mine, so having regard to WP:BLUDGEON I will not reply further and will leave the others to determine whether I have correctly interpreted policy and guidance. Stifle (talk) 08:15, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
That guideline is for articles being created; meeting NSPORT should be seen as akin to how a new article will typically survive first-pass scrutiny by NPP if it contains 3 independent RS. The criteria for creation are much less strict than those for deletion. JoelleJay (talk) 03:20, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse:
The closer correctly summarized the consensus.
I personally think that GNG is a vague messy test that is needed as a fallback when there isn't an applicable special notability guide, and that special notability guides, when available, should be sufficient. (The opinions of other editors may vary.)
Endorse I am unsympathetic to strict scrutiny being applied to guidelines (or even policies) because they all allow for exceptions on grounds of reason or common sense. Moreover, when closely parsed they give the (false, I'm sure) impression of having been written by committees of camels. I think AfD closers need to take a pragmatic approach and in this case no consensus is within the very wide range of outcomes I would think reasonable. Thincat (talk) 10:48, 1 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
weak overturn to keep A) I'm really not trying to be a jackass here. B) I tend to be very sympathetic to NC closes and it takes a lot for me to argue an NC close should be overturned. But given the numbers (strong keep) and strength of argument (I'd call it a wash, in the GNG/SNG typical status but I can buy leaning toward delete depending on how you view that debate) it would have been better closed as keep frankly. Sorry to annoy both sides in this. Hobit (talk) 02:28, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I've always felt that Wikipedia articles need two independent, reliable sources, because if there are no good sources then the content isn't verifiable, and if there's only one source then our article is either plagiarism or a copyvio, so there are good reasons why you need two. For this reason, I abhor SNGs that allow articles that don't pass the GNG. But tragically, the community does allow SNGs to overrule the GNG in some cases, even where the SNG is blatant special pleading (and NSPORTS is the absolute worst of our SNGs in this respect). My opinion as an editor is that this content should have been deleted, but my opinion as a DRV reviewer is that Stifle's close was defensible. What we need to do is deprecate NSPORTS.—S MarshallT/C 10:09, 2 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you – I would not have any objections to some tightening up being done to NSPORTS, but that discussion needs to take place elsewhere. Stifle (talk) 17:23, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
S Marshall has touched on the source of my frustration. Unlike some SNGs, WP:NSPORTS is supposed to ultimately require the WP:GNG to be met - it's literally the second sentence in WP:NSPORTS, and the community confirmed this with a 2017 RfC. It's frustrating to be told that this discussion has to happen when it already has happened. SportingFlyerT·C 20:01, 5 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Could you help me out here? I'm seeing the second sentence as "The article should provide reliable sources showing that the subject meets the general notability guideline or the sport specific criteria set forth below." It sounds like the GNG or SNG works. Am I looking at a different sentence than I should be? Are we just reading that differently? I'm pretty confused. Hobit (talk) 04:01, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The first sentence on NSPORT is This guideline is used to help evaluate whether or not a sports person or sports league/organization (amateur or professional) is likely to meet the general notability guideline, and thus merit an article in Wikipedia. The second sentence is meant as a guide for how to evaluate the sources already in the article, as a means of quickly predicting whether the subject is notable enough to avoid deletion, similar to how we look for 2–3 RS for bios in other disciplines. However, just like the RS might be shown at AfD to be insufficient for SIGCOV, editors may also determine the SNG presumption of notability for a particular subject is faulty by showing it failed in its prediction of GNG coverage. And I agree, the wording in NSPORT (and N) is terrible and unclear, although the regulars mostly seem to have the correct interpretation as described in the 2017 RfC. JoelleJay (talk) 04:23, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Neutral All the keep !votes are, essentially, "passes NCRIC". Yet, as evidenced by multiple editors at the current RfC, previous ones, and the wording of NSPORTS itself, that guideline is a particularly problematic one and should definitively not be treated as a Verbum Dei. Now of course I'm not sure AfD closers can or should ignore so many non-policy votes from otherwise capable editors, hence the neutral. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 13:52, 7 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn. Many (most?) editors at the current RfC actually seem to feel NSPORT guidance re: GNG isabundantlyclear that SSGs are subordinate to GNG; that making the wording more explicit is unnecessary because it's such a minority of people who don't understand it; and/or that the rule just needs to be enforced more. Given the extremely high proportion of AfDs that end in delete for SSG-meeting sports bios as compared to any other bio, I think the majority of editors do understand NSPORT doesn't supersede GNG. The actual issue is there are many discussions that close as keep without GNG being met not because the !voters claim an SSG overrides it, but because in cases where the subject is pre-internet/non-English-language the SSGs imply editors should receive more time to find GNG-meeting sources offline. I think this lends itself to newer editors interpreting this is as evidence that the SSG does override GNG in any situation. JoelleJay (talk) 03:03, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
@JoelleJay: The AfD closed as delete (with the later recreation being a redirect), and your comment seems to support that. Otherwise, could you also clarify whether you suggest overturning to "no consensus" or to "keep"? RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 23:05, 8 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
RandomCanadian, I thought it closed as no consensus? While the close was defensible given the number of keep votes, I think the clearly mistaken interpretation of the guidelines should have merited at least another relist and ideally a close by an experienced admin who could review the arguments by the !voters (of which there is exactly one: passes NCRIC). I would argue to overturn it and either reopen or, preferably, close as delete. JoelleJay (talk) 02:35, 9 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Sorry, got confused, for some reason I thought we were at the DRV for Allen (Cambridge University cricketer) (30 March) when I answered you (despite me having checked the AfD and commented above)... Stupid me. Nevermind the confusion, then. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:50, 9 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. There's a bit of a contradiction at play here, as on the one hand the intention of NSPORT is as a proxy for GNG when access to sources may be limited, but on the other hand the community has expressly decided in the RFC cited by the OP that "arguments must be more refined than simply citing compliance with a subguideline of WP:NSPORTS in the context of an Articles for Deletion discussion". Taking that RFC at face value, the closer must disregard the !vote of Lugnuts and every other keep vote that cited Lugnuts only. But then we see DevaCat1's keep vote, which not only cited NCRIC, but explains that there is an apparent "lack of good access to sources in Pakistan for most editors on an English language site". This offers us a concrete reason why we may be struggling to come up with sources on this guy, and this is exactly the point of the subject-specific guideline: to tell us that it's very likely the sources establishing notability exist, even if we haven't found them yet. So, taking the keep vote of DevaCat alongside the delete vote of the nom and SportingFlyer as valid votes, I think the "no consensus" outcome is correct. There isn't a consensus to keep though. — Amakuru (talk) 10:07, 12 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse Probably should have been closed as keep, but there is no effective difference between that and NC so not really worth a fight. No way this should have been closed as delete, that would be a clear WP:SUPERVOTE. Smartyllama (talk) 14:50, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
Kalman_Sultanik – Wrong venue; please follow up the copyright problem discussion at WP:CP (which the nominator has now done). Stifle (talk) 09:44, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The following is an archived debate of the deletion review of the page above. Please do not modify it.
To resolve the issue, a new version of the article has been made and can be viewed at the temporary page found at Talk:Kalman_Sultanik/Temp. Sareneras (talk) 04:48, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Wrong venue - this article was not deleted, it was blanked with {{copyvio}}, and listed at Copyright Problems. If you've rewritten the article, the correct place to discuss replacing the current page with the new content is there, at CP. ƒirefly ( t · c ) 06:27, 31 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above is an archive of the deletion review of the page listed in the heading. Please do not modify it.
