- Category:Roman Catholic bishops by nationality (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
This category was deleted in a discussion with a total of 4 participants. I suggested that it should not be deleted without notifying the contributing categories but was ignored. A later discussion on Category:Roman Catholic archbishops by nationality has generated many more participants and has shown a clear consensus against this change. As it is there are multiple subcategories that do not fit in the new parameters such as Category:French Roman Catholic bishops in Africa and Category:Spanish Roman Catholic bishops in South America. Beyond this we have a huge number of sib-cats which are Irish Roman Catholic bishops, German Roman Catholic bishops, etc. We have other categories such as Category:Roman Catholic bishops in the United States which show there is some will to create parallel trees by both where bishops served and where they were from. This under participated in discussion that failed to tag relevant child categories and is now trying to impose a change of scope on the child categories is making things truly messy. The best course is to overturn this premature close especially considering the opposition to applying it more broadly. Huge category scope changes like this should not be effected with so little participation.John Pack Lambert (talk) 23:18, 18 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Question. "deleted" or "moved"? The CfD linked shows a move. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 03:01, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- When I look I see a merge, not a move, followed by deletion. Anyway, it doesn't matter, categories are no use any more but fortunately, along with other useless stuff like Authority Control and navboxes, they are down at the bottom where they are easily ignored. Thincat (talk) 10:46, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I guess this more constitutes and out of process merger. It was merged into the Roman Catholic bishops by country, ignoring that it was a child of Category:Occupation by nationality. This would be like assuming that the defining thing for ambassadors is where they worked, and their nationality has no importance, and merging Ambassadors by nationality into Ambassadors by country of assignment. OK, since some bishops serve in their country of origin, this is a little bit extreme, however at times in the past the majority and at times virtually all bishops serving outside of Europe were from within Europe, so in some places for decades and in some areas for centuries every bishop was not someone from that location, so in some places this would be the functional reality of the situation. This is a very, very wrong headed move. It ignored the fact we have categories like Category:Spanish Roman Catholic bishops in South America and Category:French Roman Catholic bishops in Africa that clearly go against it. If you look at [1] you will find the current discussion about the seeming sister category (or daughter category, if you see archbishops as a subset of all bishops, a view that I think would allow for avoiding too many small categories) we have 5 people opposing the nomination and only 2 in support counting the person who made the nomination. There is clearly not widespread support for this move. Also This move made it so French Roman Catholic bishops a category that in all its other parents says it is about people by nationality, has one parent which attempts to rescope it to only those who served in France, and include any who served in France who were not French. This is ignoring at least 68 articles there that are explicitly categorized as not serving in France, and there are possibly more.John Pack Lambert (talk) 12:46, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- That CfD asked the participants to choose between two alternatives, bishops by country vs bishops by nationality, and most of them accepted that framing. As Carlossuarez46 correctly pointed out during the debate, in fact the two choices presented weren't mutually exclusive. This should have led to a discussion about whether we could have both, but for some bizarre reason, there wasn't much discussion of that. In my view we should actually fork the category into (1) RC bishops by country of diocese and (2) RC bishops by country of origin. We might need to send it back to CfD for the category nerds to decide how to do that in a way that's consistent with our other categorization decisions.—S Marshall T/C 13:20, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse a tricky discussion, but I think the close correctly identified the consensus. I'm not sure this whole thing isn't a giant overcategorisation but that's not the question being asked. As the closer noted, there's work to be done here - it doesn't change the ultimate consensus, though. SportingFlyer T·C 21:09, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Relist for increased participation (though I don't tpersonally hink it matters much one way or another) DGG ( talk ) 22:50, 19 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse The close correctly identified the consensus. That said, perhaps a discussion of forking is necessary by nationality. Not at the bishop level but higher up the tree. For example: Category:Scottish Christian clergy could be the target of all Scottish nationals who were bishops but who did not serve their episcopacy in Scotland. It would essentially be an expat category and so should be quite small. Laurel Lodged (talk) 17:28, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Relist - it leaves all the contents such as Category:American Roman Catholic bishops without their obvious parent. A consensus to do something silly should not prevail. Oculi (talk) 19:34, 20 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- The close was correct, but it is a pointless close since none of the follow-up nominations (that were implied by this close) will go through. Relist per WP:IAR. I still think that emigrants with an occupation in their new country rather than in their country of origin should be categorized by occupation + new nationality instead of by occupation + old nationality, in fact I thought that was even in one of the categorization guidelines - but I can't find it and there is apparently not enough consensus for that logic. Marcocapelle (talk) 09:25, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- It was my nomination, but I agree it hasnt worked and needs to be reconsidered in a wider context. We need to find a way of categorising clergy which can cope with both nationality and location without confusing the two - which is what we had before. Rathfelder (talk) 10:28, 21 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Calling most bishops emigrants is misusing the word. There are some few bishops that are emigrants. There are a lot more who are expatriates. In some cases these bishops were very closely connected with colonist regimes. There is a reason we have Category:French Roman Catholic bishops in Africa, Category:Spanish Roman Catholic bishops in South America and Category:German Roman Catholic bishops in North America. I have not checked the last one, so there may be a few debatable cases there. French bishops in Africa is full of men who I do not think there is any way to consider them to have been anything other than French.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:42, 26 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Migration patterns amongst clergy vary, as you might expect, for place to place. But its very rare for a person to migrate once they have attained the status of bishop. Much more common is young priests moving to a new country to become a bishop. And regardless of what you might think about their personal nationality (I've only found 3 articles which actually say something about a bishop's nationality) a large majority stay in the country where they are a bishop until they die. Rathfelder (talk) 13:41, 16 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- It is not as rare as you imply. Also some bishops were without any question expatriates who were seen by others and saw themselves as foriegners.John Pack Lambert (talk) 13:54, 22 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]
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