- Draft:Push and Shove (song) (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
There is literally no support for a redirect in the discussion and no authority for a non-admin supervote to redirect it. There were two votes to delete and SmokeyJoe's bizarre !vote to "ignore it" and let an inapplicable CSD criteria be used to delete it. And yes, while this seems largely inane and a redirect could be the equivalent without MFD, it is not (deletion does allow for the draftspace name to be used again) and most importantly the discussion did not support a single non-admin supervote to redirect it. Ricky81682 (talk) 21:26, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Cryptic talked a lot of sense during that debate and his comments do support a redirect, among other outcomes. But I don't like that close very much. Instead of weighing the arguments, the closer formed a judgment on editor behaviour, and that's not the role of an XfD closer. I think we need to overturn this. I don't see it as necessary or desirable to relist because there's more than enough discussion to inform a MfD close. I'll simply go with vacate and allow someone else to re-close that on the merits of the arguments.—S Marshall T/C 21:47, 20 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- It all pretty pathetic, yes DraftSpace was supposed to support the Project, but Ricky revived a backwater WikiProject to cram worthless but harmless non-mainspace pages through Wikipedia processes, creating the worst MfD backlogs ever seen.
- A lot has been happening. Repeated attempts to have non-particicpated MfD default to delete have been rejected. Repeated attempts to create the same thing, aka UserSpace_Prod, have been rejected.
- We've just had a very meaningful RfC, professionally closed, at Wikipedia:User pages/RfC for stale drafts policy restructuring. It clearly hasn't gone the way Ricky and Legacypac would have liked. I would have thought it is not sensible to work on developing a coherent guideline for managaing drafts. Instead, Ricky is obfuscating, creating this noise here, pushing again for another perpetually reject variation on Prod expansion at Wikipedia:Village_pump_(policy)#RfC:_Proposed_draftspace_deletion.
- The MfD closer, Hasteur, has a long history of sensibly trying to help the project manage old drafts, notably User:HasteurBot for G13 implementation, and important input into associated policy discussion. His close was entirely sensible, and bringing him to DRV is rude. Ricky didn't even discuss it with him. Ricky is sometimes not very good at discussion. "bizare" he says, I am really unable to decide whether he has a mental blockage preventing understanding, or whether he just doesn't listen. Redirecting recent accidental content forking creations to the older has always been, and obviously is, the best way to deal with new accidental content forking creations. No administrative overheads. Abundantly clear help to the recent creater. It has been said dozens of time to Ricky, but I guess he is blind to that message. Policy wise, these MfD nomiations fail WP:ATD, fail WP:BEFORE, the pages he and accomplice User:Legacypac keep nominating have no WP:DEL#REASON for listing.
- As this was a WP:NAC, take the matter to WP:AN and see if any uninvolved admin wants to revert or affirm the close. It is not a proper matter for DRV. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:30, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Although any uninvolved admin can overturn a non-admin closure at their discretion, WP:NACD specifies that it is also procedurally okay to take a NAC to DRV. Since it is here, we might as well go for a consensus. Mz7 (talk) 03:10, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes, Mz7, that is right. For what it is worth, I Endorse the close as a correct reading of policy, and the discussion in the light of so many similar MfD discussions. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 08:17, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn to delete the opinions were mostly for delete, Cryptic supported a redirect as the alternate to listing at MFD in the first place but since we were there the opinion was to delete. Redirect resulting is an implausible typo, no one is going to search for draft: when searching for an article on this topic. --82.14.37.32 (talk) 13:12, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- eh, right outcome and where we should have started. weak endorse deletion would have been a reasonable close too. But not at all clear why we are having this discussion (MfD or DRV) when a redirect would have solved it to begin with. Hobit (talk) 15:42, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Closers comment What we have here is one
user administrator who wants to burn down pages that are in the Draft space at any cost to the wikipedia and is willing to bend/break/violate consensus to get their way. I would note the Redirects are cheap. Redirects take up minimal disk space and use very little bandwidth. Perhaps I did supervote, but only because the nominator failed to consider alternatives to running straight to MFD. Yes I am also a frequent submitter of draft namespace pages to MFD, but that's my absolute last step after considering alternatives (such as putting it through AfC to get more eyes on it, redirecting to a reasonably similar page, or trying to get the creator interested in improving it). I would note that repeatedly in these MFDs Rickey uses nonsensical (or completely disproven arguments) in order to start the nominations and we have the same nominations being relisted multiple times because the traditional combatants have made their case and it ends up in a no-consensus retain status quo ante that has wasted many volunteers time in considering the repeated arguments. Cryptic gave the best reason for redirecting, and suprisingly the only policy based rationale for their vote. I stand by my troutslaps to SmokeyJoe and Rickey for their repeated arguments about deleting or retaining "stale" draft pages. Hasteur (talk) 19:04, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse. The nomination starts out with, There is literally no support for a redirect in the discussion. But, looking at the AfD, I see:
- Ignore and let G13 take its course, or redirect ... --SmokeyJoe
- SmokeyJoe's right that a redirect would have immediately fixed this... —Cryptic
- So, that certainly seems like some support for the idea. But, I think the most significant statement in the whole AfD was, DraftSpace should not be a source of administrative overload, which I agree with heartily, and don't understand why DRV is being pestered with these totally trivial issues. -- RoySmith (talk) 20:18, 21 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Sigh. When I wrote the above, I hadn't noticed the Perhaps I did supervote comment. As much as I think this DRV nomination is flawed, for the reasons I described above, I cannot support an AfD closure where the closer admits to a supervote. That's not your job. Your job is to summarize the discussion, filtering out comments (and participants) which are clearly in conflict with established policy. If you have an opinion in the matter, you need to either suppress it completely, join the discussion, or just stay away. If I thought it was even worth worrying about the existence of something in draft space, I would say send this back to AfD for a clean discussion, but I can't even get behind that. The whole thing is a waste of effort. So, I'm striking my endorsement, and replacing it with Get a life -- RoySmith (talk) 16:25, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and delete. Redirect is not useful. Stifle (talk) 08:54, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- @Stifle: So completely throwing away WP:CHEAP and deliberately making the user confused as to where their content went? Hasteur (talk) 12:22, 23 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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- Small points of usefulness of redirection are: (1) the editor on return, and any future similarly thinking editors, will be taken to the corresponding mainpage article associated with their obvious interest, instead of being shown a deletion log; (2) the editor, and reviewers of the editor, can follow the editors edit history; (3) it is a solution to accidental content forking that any editor can fix without administrative overhead.
- Deletion, on the other hand: (1) Requires a community discussion; (2) requires at least one administrator action; (3) creates a bigger page than the one to be deleted.
- Is it not disruptive for Ricky bombard to the MfD process with trivial things that deletion policy encourages other solutions?
- Is it not the case that almost always, in mainspace, accidental content forks result in one being redirected to the other, material merged if required?
- --SmokeyJoe (talk) 00:16, 24 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and delete. The consensus clearly paved this out as the only outcome, and reaching any other conclusion is a misinterpretation of the discussion. — ξxplicit 04:40, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- (ec)You are probably influenced by the fact that the only explicit !votes started with "Delete"? Admittedly, 103.6.159.91, by his history of contributions, appears to be a bona fide Wikipedian, even though some distrust !votes by IPs. His !vote should count, even though I don't care much for the rational provided. The nominator, I note pedantically, failed to articulate a reason for deletion. Was the closer biased to a close that didn't require admin privilege due to being an non-admin? Possibly, and some say this is a reason for non-admins to keep away of delete-bordering closes, although the template {{db-xfd}} enables non-admins to close as delete. Actually, the most surprising thing I discovered here is that Hasteur is not an admin. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 05:31, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Just to clarify my thinking a bit - I stated a primary opinion of "delete" solely because I thought it was the option least likely to waste any more editor time on this draft. Look how well it turned out. —Cryptic 05:25, 25 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn and delete. Hasteur admits supervoting above ("Perhaps I did supervote..."). Respect given for being able to admit that, but still supervoting is exactly what you shouldn't do whilst closing. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 01:04, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Deleters (Ricky81682—Starblind—Cryptic—Explicit—SmokeyJoe—Stifle—RoySmith—82.14.37.32—S Marshall) You want the pound of flesh by deleting? Fine I'll leave a big happy note on the creator's talk page about who to ask where their content went if and when they came back. Hope you can remember this page's contents and the MFD and the DRV because now you're responsibile to the user for it. Hasteur (talk) 19:06, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- What are you even talking about? The user who created the draft (Status) is still active, and has edited within this month. They were duly noted about the MFD and didn't participate. If the draft content was very important to them, they would have participated or saved it elsewhere. The draft had very little content and what little it did have duplicated the article on the same song, Push and Shove (song). Status is aware of the Push and Shove (song) article, as they have edited that article too. I consider myself a very creative person, but I can't envision a scenario in which removing this draft is likely to do any harm to either the creator or Wikipedia. You seem to be getting upset over literally nothing. Andrew Lenahan - Starblind 19:39, 26 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
- Frankly, no problem, we determined a long time ago to use consensus in decision making processes and that's what we've looked to here. As for leaving a note on the user in questions talk page (noting the above that it hardly seems relevant), then that's an excellent idea and seems to overcome the concern that if an inactive editor ever returns to find their draft gone and feels confused in some way, the note can easily point them to the MFD, this DRV and a comment to suggest that if they feel minded to have another crack at it, many a friendly admin will get it back for them so they can try REFUND. Or we could leave a hysterical note pointing out these evil uncaring people who had a hand in deleting the apparently abandoned draft. I guess which one of those we'd chose to leave would tell us if we really actually care about the user or if we are just trying to use some future confusion/hurt feelings to try and lay some sort of guilt trip. --82.14.37.32 (talk) 09:44, 28 May 2016 (UTC)[reply]
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