- Jain-Hindu relations (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (article|XfD|restore)
The article was deleted under the CSD A10 which says it is a "Recently created article that duplicates an existing topic". I don't think the article meets this criteria since it does not duplicates any existing topic. There seems to be a rough concensus at Wikipedia_talk:Noticeboard_for_India-related_topics#Jain-Hindu_relations against speedy deletion. I have also tried to talk to the deleting admin but am not convinced with the reasons that he gives. Rahul Jain (talk) 04:35, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - as is indicated in the threads that Jethwarp provides, and in other threads elsewhere, this article has been discussed quite a lot and the tendentious recreations are symptomatic of the underlying coatracking problem. - Sitush (talk) 09:14, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep - This may be with Wikipedia, because this is about relation between two communities which is closely associated. there is nothing wrong. I thought article should must keep. GKCH (talk) 09:21, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - @ Gokulchandola (talk · contribs) - Wikepedia does not run on what you think. Please either get aware of the subject - which was mentioned in article - and do not be mislead by title of article and cite valid reasons for your keep vote. Jethwarp (talk) 10:37, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion but Allow recreation - For, as rightly said by RegentsPark (talk · contribs) in his talk page to Rahul Jain - you can't go around trying to endgame the system by adding the same material under different titles.. Also Sitush, who is very much aware of the subject has rightly pointed that the whole article deleted had coatkracking problems. Further, article was based on fringe theories and non reliable sources and original researches - which was the main reason why similar article was repeatedly declined at Articles for creation (Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Jainism and Hinduism) by different reviewers. When this failed he created article under new name - Jain and Hindu religion -, which was deleted twice. Again this was just one more recreation of same article under different name Jain-Hindu relations, which was deleted by an admin, who is well aware of tactics of creator - which is why he commented - you can't go around trying to endgame the system by adding the same material under different titles. Thanks. Jethwarp (talk) 10:37, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Added allow recreation - which was though never denied by closing admin in his talk page. He was rather advised by Regentspark to recreate article devoid of original researchers and send it to AfC. Though AfC is not a per-requisite for creation but considering the history of article over many years it is better be sent to AfC. Thanks.Jethwarp (talk) 08:34, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
*Endorse first G12 speedy as a technicality, but allow some sort of recreation in a modified form.
- 18:16, 1 November 2013 "A10: Recently created article that duplicates an existing topic: Similar article with different title previously deleted - several times - at Jain and Hindu religion" – I AGF that this was correct.
- 21:51, 20 October 2013 "A10: Recently created article that duplicates an existing topic, jainism and hinduism are obviously fully covered already" – this seems very problematic to me and with hindsight was controversial.
05:40, 20 October 2013 "G12: Unambiguous copyright infringement: too much copyvio from other articles, also at AfC" – I AGF that this was correct but it would have been easily remedied with {{copied}} on the relevant talk pages. AFC is not a priori a prerequisite for article creation. A recreated article avoiding copyright infringement would be appropriate at AFC or main space (where it is likely to be submitted to AFD). Thincat (talk) 11:42, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Is the vote for all the three deletions or just the G12, because I wished to review the A10 as I mentioned in the opening statements. Rahul Jain (talk) 11:56, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- So far as I am concerned, if any of the speedy deletions was appropriate then it is appropriate that the article was deleted. That does not mean it can't be recreated in a suitable way (and it looks probable that the previous recreations have been unsuitable). Thincat (talk) 12:03, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The first article was deleted on the grounds of copyvio (G12). The content I copied was written by myself in other wikipedia articles. Despite that, I removed these specific contents (and hence the copyvio, if applicable) to create the second article. It was deleted for A10. I, then recreated the article under a different title (change of title was suggested on the article's talk page) and its again deleted for A10. The article does not qualify for A10 and deleting it even if previous version had copivio does not seem correct. There was no copyvio in this particular article. Rahul Jain (talk) 12:39, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Deleting admin comment The article has been created and deleted multiple times under different titles (most recently as Jain and Hindu religion and as Hinduism and Jainism through an afd discussion but with a much longer history of creation and deletion). Though the article content does shift, the numerous recreation attempts with title changes is excessive. I've suggested here that the author seek help on sourcing and structure, build the article in user space, and get some sort of consensus before attempting to create a similar topic in article space. That, I believe, is a constructive suggestion that would help us all if he chooses to follow it. Otherwise, this article is likely to be stuck in a cycle of deletions/deletion reviews/AfDs and other time sinks. --regentspark (comment) 12:40, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- I think there's an encyclopaedic topic to be written about but there's a consensus that the actual text we're discussing is inappropriate for it. The encyclopaedic topic is the one that fits in the blank space on a diagram:-
If there's a word for this topic, I don't know what it is. By analogy with Christianity and Islam, the right name might be Jainism and Hinduism or Hinduism and Jainism, although I see that both titles have been deleted several times in the past and declined at AfC.Therefore my view is that we should allow creation of an appropriate article on the topic, but we endorse the deletion of the content repeatedly added by The Rahul Jain, which has been removed a number of times now in varying forms. The message here for the Rahul Jain is: making minor changes and re-submitting this content with a different title will not work. We want an article on this subject, but we don't want this article on this subject.—S Marshall T/C 13:41, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The article was deleted through speedy-deletion, not through consensus. Rahul Jain (talk) 14:05, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Jainism_and_Hinduism appears to be a consensus discussion. -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 14:46, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- That was not the article I wrote. Rahul Jain (talk) 14:51, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Overturn Using G12 for material copied from other unspecified articles in WP is not reasonable, because the links just have to be added. Nor is a 2006 discussion on a topic of this general sort necessarily a justification. And speedy deleting an article like this on grounds of duplication is too far a stretch--that is contains material also covered or included in small parts in many other articles does not mean its a topic by itself. Many reasons, but none of them apply. I am not necessarily endorsing the article, or its title, but this sort of decision is not for an individual admin, and should be discussed at AfD . DGG ( talk ) 22:08, 2 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment - @ User:DGG - please note that the article we are discussing deleted using A10 - A10: Recently created article that duplicates an existing topic: Similar article with different title previously deleted - several times Further a similar article created by user:rahul Jain, was also originally at Afc (see [[Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Jainism and Hinduism ) - when author could not get his article cleared at AfC for several reasons - he created an article by another name in main-space and later requested deletion of the AfC page by blanking the page and using db-self tag. Please see comments of User:Regents Park @ User_talk:RegentsPark#Jain-Hindu_relations - where therefore he had to comment you can't go around trying to endgame the system by adding the same material under different titles. also he was advised to build the article again in his user space and submit same at AfC again for review. Jethwarp (talk) 03:55, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- You are I think correct that in view of the history, allow recreation would be a better choice. DGG ( talk ) 19:41, 4 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Allow recreation. In the light of the subsequent discussion I am striking my previous comment. The topic is suitable for an article to be written meeting notability guidelines and not infringing copyright. Since the AfDs that deleted articles on the same topic were in 2006/2007, they carry little weight. It was appropriate that the current recent version of the article was moved to user space and it should be left there to be worked on. If it is moved to mainspace again (and I suggest it should be under the current title) it should not be speedied again solely on grounds of previous history. It is optional whether the AfC process is used. This article has been created and recreated in a very unsatisfactory way but the deletions, by denying an opportunity for AfD, have also been unsatisfactory. Thincat (talk) 10:54, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Allow creation of Hinduism and Jainism (bigger one first). The AfD debates were long ago and poorly participated. Urge acceptance of RegentsPark's advice, or else risk seeing it deleted at AfD. Redirect the other mentioned titles, there is no case for more than one comparison article. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 11:33, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn there is no applicable speedy criteria and I don't think an article start at AfC counts--A10 is very narrow. I think we can and should have an article here, but the one proposed feels like a WP:OR essay. It would likely be wise to try for a somewhat more academic treatment. Hobit (talk) 14:45, 3 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
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