- Category:Electricians (talk|edit|history|logs|links|watch) (XfD|restore)
What was meant as a discussion of over-categorization (i.e., Category:Israeli electricians) was highjacked as part of a recent war on categories of working-class people (circumventing the Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2012 March 6#Category:House painters closure as "no consensus"), arguing that nobody who is an electrician should be categorized as an electrician UNLESS they are famous as electricians! (In other words, NOBODY!) Apparently, only artistic or intellectual professions (i.e., middle-class and upper-class ones) are "worthy" enough to have categories in Wikipedia; notable electricians should have their professions ignored, since some folks find them just too plebeian or something. Instead, these notable electricians were stripped of their categories (making them impossible to find as electricians), and their names were shoved under the mat onto an obscure "List of electricians" page. Orange Mike | Talk 19:17, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment It looks as if your analysis is right. We have a very fine Category:Ladies-in-waiting which includes subcategories of considerable erudition and subtlety. We also have Category:Wikipedians who are Freemasons so Category:Wikipedians who are snobs would be a useful addition. I know, I know, WP:OTHERSTUFFEXISTS. Thincat (talk) 19:43, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- reply - had a consensus gone against me at the first discussion, I wouldn't be quite so angry at this one. Take a look at some of the sports articles, where a soccer player may fall into fifteen or more categories; but nobody dares annoy the footy lobby by proposing that some of that microcategorization be deleted. Working stiffs, on the other hand: who cares about them? --Orange Mike | Talk 19:53, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- The decision was to delete the category and replace with a list. On the face of it this is untenable because, as the relevant guideline explains, if a list is appropriate then a category is also appropriate and vice versa. However, I won't immediately go "overturn and relist" because although the closer's been notified of the DRV, he hasn't yet had the chance to respond; Timrollpickering deserves the opportunity to explain his reasoning.—S Marshall T/C 20:19, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- A quick clarification: A category existing doesn't mean a list is appropriate; same goes for if a list existing doesn't mean there should be a category - per WP:CLN. Categories are not about providing content. They are intended to be a system for navigation. - jc37 22:42, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- They do not always require each other, but they usually do. Sometimes there is a special reason, , but except for technical limitations or the need to create hierarchies of categories that may not be each suitable for a list, they are no frequent. The burden should be upon those wishing to justify the absence. DGG ( talk ) 22:54, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Actually, afaik, they never "require each other". Never. They may co-exist, or may not, depending on the situation, but there is no "requirement". Indeed, Wikipedia would be an encyclopdia regardless of whether a category existed or not. Categories are merely a technical tool (like redirects) which are to help with navigation. The encyclopdia could exist just fine, regardless of whether they existed. - jc37 23:16, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Now that plenty of time for explanation has been provided, I see that no explanation has been forthcoming. My recommendation is therefore overturn and relist.—S Marshall T/C 08:42, 28 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Question. The close said "Listify/repurpose". Where is the list or what is the new purpose? As it stands, I seem to see a bad closing statement. --SmokeyJoe (talk) 22:50, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- There is a "manual" working page for listing categories after a closure. It likely just hasn't been done yet. If you would like to help out, please feel free. - jc37 23:12, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Please see this diff of the closer listifying the category. - jc37 23:32, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Thank you. So the close is an extended process, and bot depopulation and deletion of the category won't actually occur until after the listification is done? --SmokeyJoe (talk) 23:52, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Usually. Listification is a slower thing, due to it being manually done. (I think we're rather spoiled by the work cydebot does depopulating/moving/merging/renaming cats : ) - jc37 23:59, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- For the record, the DRV nominator did include a link to the "List of electricians" which replaced the category – and can stay and complement it if that is restored. – Fayenatic L (talk) 00:09, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn Irrational close. No policy based reason to delete. No need to relist, either, but I suppose someone can if they think they can find an argument. DGG ( talk ) 22:54, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment:
- This comment has (unfortunately) less to do with the category under discussion, and more about the nomination itself.
- It would appear to me that this nom looks a lot like a form of ownership issues, of personally identifying with the topic, and taking it as a personal sleight.
- "Apparently, only artistic or intellectual professions (i.e., middle-class and upper-class ones) are "worthy" enough to have categories in Wikipedia; notable electricians should have their professions ignored, since some folks find them just too plebeian or something." - As I would hope we as Wikipedians know, no topic is "worthy" of inclusion in the Wikipedia. There is no such thing. We deal in verifiable reliable sources. Whether we like it or not, we have a notability guideline. And an individual having an article has to do with that "notability". This is no sleight to anyone. It is (supposed to be) neutral.
- So getting back to the category under discussion, it's a group of people who are noted for "something", who also happen to be electricians. (And more than a few of which are not noted for being so.) This is an incidental piece of information. This is better handled as a list so that this can be explained in each case, something that cannot be done in a category due to technical limitations. And because categories are designed for navigation, and not to be a "feel-good" grouping of like things.
- So I feel that the nom is sincerely sympathetic to those who he sees as "the working class", and that this is just taking this deletion personally. When,as noted, this isn't personal. It's part of the normal process of neutrally determining what should be included in the encyclopedia. If the nom doesn't like WP:N (and I will say, I'm not a huge fan myself), then please let's start an WP:RfC on it. but in the meantime, getting angry, and seeing this as a war on something that someone may personally identify with, doesn't help anyone. - jc37 23:09, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- what is the relevance of WP:N? The underlying question is whether we should categorize based only on primary notability. DGG ( talk ) 16:32, 24 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Question What is the basis for the request for review?: 1.) Closing editor didn't correctly summarize consensus, 2.) the consensus was wrong, 3.) the consensus on this nomination didn't match that on housepainters, 3.) that the original nomination about Israeli electricians was expanded ? It really matters here what is being objected to. (The competing claims of class consciousness versus career notability was discussed in the substance of the nomation at length and deletion review shouldn't just be to extend discussions; otherwise I would get a second chance here on every outcome I disagree with.) Different editors here are guessing what the underlying objection is but what is the actual procedural concern here? RevelationDirect (talk) 23:41, 22 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- reply 4 above all, leading (because it was inappropriately expanded) to the issues you summarize as 3 and 2. Nobody is claiming bad faith; but just because I don't believe in Category: Swedish oncologists does not mean that I don't think we should have a category for oncologists. --Orange Mike | Talk 21:48, 24 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Quick comment: there is a long discussion on this under way at WT:Categories for discussion#On the categorization of biographies by (perhaps) incidental occupation. A key point raised there is that occupation is still defining for the person even if that is not the reason they became notable.
I'm still thinking about that, but it points in the direction of reversing my closure on Israeli electricians and my nomination on the other national categories. – Fayenatic L (talk) 00:09, 23 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Overturn (I commented above). The CfD nomination was in two parts: (1) deleting the electrician-nationality intersections arguing that no people thus categorised achieved notability through being an electrician and (2) removing any people from Category:Electricians on presumably the same grounds. The "delete:non-defining" !vote seems to be using a novel meaning for "non-defining" and the "delete:create union categories as needed" does not give a deletion rationale and is unclear in its intent for category creation. The IP did not give a substantive opinion. The view that the intersections are trivial was not suggested although it could have been coherently argued—however, this view would not have applied to Category:Electricians itself. The closer did not provide a rationale but decided consensus was to adopt the nominator's suggested procedure. The nomination implicitly proposed a major change in categorisation guidance (invoking concepts of notability and primacy). Although the nomination was carefully worded, some people may not have spotted that such a radical change in category guidance was being proposed, possibly seeing the CfD as merely requesting the deletion of trivial intersections. Bearing this in mind the discussion was inadequate and the CfD should have been continued by relisting. I have no problem with a relist at this stage if anyone wants but I would suggest separate discussions for the category itself and the intersections. Thincat (talk) 08:59, 29 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse delete closure because I see no procedural fault with it. I have no opinion about this issue of categorization, but DRV is not the place for repeating the XfD discussion on the merits. As soon as there is consensus about the underlying categorization problem, the categories can simply be recreated. Sandstein 15:48, 31 March 2012 (UTC)[reply]
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