- note to closer and discussion participants - "they would only be used in lieu of proper discussion" is not a rationale as their use would be no different from the use of
'''support''' - if this is your reason, save your bytes and just type "*'''endorse deletion''' ~~~~ --Random832 (contribs) 20:53, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Template:Support (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs) (restore | cache)
This template, along with Oppose, Neutral and Question, were deleted because it was felt that the icons they contained ( and ) encourage people to believe that AFD etc are a vote. There seems to be no objection to the existence of the templates, other than the icons, and I propose that for consistency with commons and other wikis, and as per discussion at AN, we should: 1. reenable creation of these templates; 2. create templates following the example in User:BenAveling/support; and 3. permanent protect the templates. Regards Ben Aveling 00:26, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Seems fine to me. I always felt that the oppositions to the icons on face had sort of a tinfoil hat character. AfD isn't a vote (but it was) and these templates don't make it a vote anymore than bolding the words "Delete" do. I am however, willing to be persuaded that this isn't necessary because we have roughly equivalent userspace templates right now. The other arguments (server space, "changing opinion", "debasing debate" etc) don't hold much water with me. Protonk (talk) 02:23, 10 September 2008 (UTC) Wow. Reading failure. I guess I didn't notice the part about "no icons". In that case I'm fine with these being created but not all that excited. I would probably never use them, as it seems easier to bold a word than enclose and pipe a template, but that's just me. Protonk (talk) 13:42, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Awesome. --NE2 03:59, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'd accept their use at RfA if they did not have icons, on the grounds that the discussions there are so much in need of improvement that anything is worth the try. "Support" is not usually what one says at AfD, in any case, but keep/delete/etc. and I would encourage people to give more nuanced opinions in any case. eg "keep or at worst merge." Changing AfD to any extent towards an explicit vote is the opposite direction from where we should go. DGG (talk) 04:48, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Confirmed; they don't have icons. Good catch that keep/delete/... would also be needed. Regards, Ben Aveling 09:08, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Is there a link to any discussion of these deletions? Spartaz Humbug! 05:57, 10 September 2008 (UTC) Slow day. By the way endorse deletion. Very clear consensus in the discussion and I can't see any evidence that consensus has changed. Spartaz Humbug! 06:00, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not proposing recreating those templates - the templates I'd like to see do not have icons and they complain, ever so politely, if no reason is provided. See below. Regards, Ben Aveling 09:08, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment wasn't this just covered a couple of months back? has anything changed since? If we want consistency with the other wiki's perhaps we should change our notability standards, image policies, deletion polices, rfa's etc. In the scheme of things not using these templates here would seem one of the least confusing parts --82.7.39.174 (talk) 06:36, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- The objection then, as originally, was that people would be mislead by the icons into thinking that AFD, etc is a vote. Regards, Ben Aveling 09:08, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- PS. I'd rather see certain other wikis adopt some policies we have, but this is simple way to avoid a small typo that I've made a lot of times, and I've seen other people do it too. So long as we don't add icons, what does it hurt? Regards, Ben Aveling 09:14, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep deleted, they would only be used in lieu of proper discussion at RFAs/AFDs/etc. Stifle (talk) 08:32, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- A problem we already have. These templates should actually help - as per discussion at AN, if no argument is given, bolding does not happen and a warning is given. Eg:
- No parameter provided: *{{User:BenAveling/support}} expands to:
- Parameter provided: * {{User:BenAveling/support|Consistency with other wikis}} expands to:
- Support: Consistency with other wikis
- Regards, Ben Aveling 09:08, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm leaning towards keeping deleted. I don't see consistency as a particularly strong rationale, and I can't see how these will improve things. What is the difference between Support and support (no rationale given)? The latter feels a little to pointy or dickish to me. Hiding T 10:58, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- For AFD or DRV, saying Keep or Delete or Support without also providing a reason carries basically no weight and has very little value. See User:BenAveling/!Vote. support (no rationale given) also carries little to no weight, but it makes that explicit. Basically, requiring the parameter reminds people to discuss, not just to vote. Regards, Ben Aveling 11:46, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I don't agree that it makes it any more explicit. I also think DRV is a bad example, because it is the one place where issues get discussed. Since it is predominately populated by admins, that may have some bearing, and it also has some bearing on why I don't think this is needed. Admins know how to close debates, they don't need to have a little template point it out. I'm also unsure how the template is supposed to work. If a user adds his comment in the form of this template, it seems to me the user is already aware of the fact that a rationale is needed. And if a user soen't use the template, what is being proposed? We amend their comment, something I'd be against? No, I think I'm leaning even further towards keep deleted. I think this is an area where we should WP:KISS. I remember being a newbie and how intimidating it was simply working out how to do a bullet and bold typing. Let's not force templates on people too. Hiding T 12:12, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I wasn't planning on making it mandatory... I don't see how you could. The main reason I've proposed having these templates is that I use them on Commons and it's a nuisance having to remember that on en, I have to use '''. I just figure that most people will follow what other people do, even if they don't really understand why, so perhaps some good might come. I agree that most people at DRV have clue, but I've seen plenty that don't - they're the ones that are there because they don't understand what happened at AFD. Cheers, Ben Aveling 12:35, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Hah. So we're all supposed to change what we do to suit you. :) Nah, realistically I can't see that this will have any more impact. You can clue in some of the people all of the time, and all of the people some of the time, but you can't clue in all of the people all of the time. Hiding T 12:49, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm not sure I can support this particular proposal (User:BenAveling/support). What if someone uses the template on RFA or the upcoming arbcom elections? "support (no rationale given)" seems pretty BITEy to me, and "Note: Failure to provide a reason will result in a warning." is simply not acceptable. If someone writes "Support. ~~~~" at an RFA, we ask them to provide a reason. We don't warn them. So.. why can't {{support}} solely consist of '''Support'''? I'd Support that. :) --Conti|✉ 13:17, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion. These are already userfied in a few places, and you're moew than welcome to userfy it again for your own use, but there's a clear consensus that it shouldn't be in mainspace. Same with the templates, go ahead and use them if you like, but it seems like it just makes the XFD's more confusing. --UsaSatsui (talk) 14:36, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion. Not to be BEANS-y, but * {{User:BenAveling/support|Per nom}} . There, you'll never see "no rationale given" again. I'm with the others who are concerned that this will be used in place of proper discussion. And while I understand that yes, we already have this problem, I don't think making it easier to vote via a template is going to solve the problem. --Kbdank71 16:39, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- {{comment}} How would
{{support}} be any more liable to be used in lieu of proper discussion than '''support''' is now? How would it be worse? --Random832 (contribs) 20:50, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- As I said, making it easier to circumvent discussion is not solving the problem at all (Nor is your "save your bytes" comment above, for that matter). That's how it would be worse. --Kbdank71 21:06, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I object to the complexity of BenAveling's version - this should simply expand to '''support''' alone for usage-compatibility with the versions on other wikis. --Random832 (contribs) 20:55, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Which makes it even easier to vote. --Kbdank71 21:06, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion - This has the potential to quite a bit of what I would consider rather unnecessary transclusion. (Wasn't there a consensus that transclusion in signatures was bad for similar reasons?). As such, I would support MfD for all these userfied versions too. - jc37 21:03, 10 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm just going to reiterate what was said at the last DRV. Consensus there was that there's no good reason to restore the templates (which I agree with, they're kinda' pointless) but userspace versions (such as mine at User:Lifebaka/+, User:Lifebaka/-, and User:Lifebaka/=) are just fine. So just keep yours in your userspace and everything's cool as far as I can see. Cheers. lifebaka++ 15:25, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Right but the previous templates had icons. This is just alternate markup for the same thing people already do. If you don't like voting, there are surely more productive ways to prevent it than to micromanage the markup people use to vote. --Random832 (contribs) 15:36, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion and do not create version described above (no icons). Transclusion cost is too high. If anybody ever changed the template (capitalize a letter, change to italicized text, etc, then the server would have to update all of those transclusions. If we told people to subst them instead, then they'd be typing way much more than to just enter it themselves. What possible gain is there to this suggestion? And how about if somebody changed the support template to "delete"? Vandalism affecting all proposal pages at once? Bad idea... brings no good and some bad, so no. Jerry delusional ¤ kangaroo 18:20, 11 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- You have conveyed much of what I was thinking when I commented above. - jc37 00:37, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion The only obvious net effect of restoring these would be to promote inconsistent formatting in the discussions where they're used. Not sure why we'd want that. (As an aside, the "save your bytes" message strikes me as inappropriate.) Townlake (talk) 14:42, 12 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion per Jerry. Icons such as this are not needed on the English Wikipedia because presumably anybody participating in a discussion where they might be used can communicate in English. By contrast, on Commons or the Meta-Wiki, they might be more useful, since there might be discussion participants there who prefer to communicate in a variety of languages. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 18:38, 13 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Endorse deletion per Jerry. As Kbdank71 notes, people can very easily bypass giving an actual "reason" by typing "per nom" or
~~~~ (that's how {{relist}} works). The negative consequences of having and using these templates (gives the impression of a vote, transclusion load, colourful icons that draw attention away from the text) far exceed the few possible advantages. –Black Falcon (Talk) 00:38, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm sorry, but what icons are you referring to here? I'm sorry, but complaining about icons when the templates don't have icons, or complaining about inconsistent formatting when templates actually enforce consistent formatting, or worrying about people vandalising the templates when part of the proposal is that the templates be protected, well, I'm sorry again, but these are all examples of the reasons that AFD/DR is not a vote. Regards, Ben Aveling 01:10, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- My apologies regarding the "icons" comment: I mixed up the deleted templates and User:BenAveling/support. I've stricken that part of my comment as inapplicable. However, where have I complained about (or mentioned, for that matter) inconsistent formatting or vandalism? Jerry mentioned vandalism, but "per Jerry" doesn't necessarily mean "per everything Jerry wrote". If I was unclear in my first comment, let me try again: Delete - use of these templates would create significant transclusion load (as well as slow loading speeds on XfD pages) for little or no benefit (formatting consistency is not strictly necessary and perhaps not even desirable, since XfDs are supposed to be discussions and not votes). –Black Falcon (Talk) 01:42, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Endorse as the TfD consensus was clear. TotientDragooned (talk) 04:48, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep deleted but unprotect. I didn't realize the last deletion discussion was 3 years old. Let him create his icon-less templates: TfD, not deletion review, is the place to discuss if consensus has changed. TotientDragooned (talk) 04:59, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep deleted per Jerry, this is unnecessary transclusion, and its made worse (server-wise) by requiring a parameter. Further, by requiring a parameter, its no longer consistent with other wikis, so one of the only real benefits is gone. Mr.Z-man 16:07, 15 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
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