Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2024 June 13

June 13[edit]

Category:Military regiments raised in Nova Scotia[edit]

Propose merging Category:Military regiments raised in Nova Scotia to Category:Military units and formations of Nova Scotia

Nominator's rationale: Overlapping category, no parent category:Military regiments exists. Mason (talk) 23:08, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support in principle, but this will require purging too. For example, North Nova Scotia Highlanders is a military unit of Canada, not of Nova Scotia. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:09, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Mexican engineer stubs[edit]

Propose merging Category:Mexican engineer stubs to Category:Engineer stubs and Category:Mexican scientist stubs

Nominator's rationale: Underpopulated stub category with no evidence of approval by Category:WikiProject Stub sorting. As always, stub categories are not free for just anybody to create on a whim, and require a minimum of 60 articles for entry -- but even after deep-scanning the Category:Mexican people stubs parent for any missed engineers, this still only has 17 articles in it.
The stub template is fine, since it can always just sort articles into the target categories, but there would have to be at least 43 more articles before a dedicated category was warranted. Bearcat (talk) 19:54, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:11, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Muwahhidism[edit]

Propose deleting

Nominator's rationale: I propose the deletion of these categories because they make no sense. Muwahiddism isn't a separate branch (like Sunni, Shia, Ibadi, Ahmadi, Quranism), it's not a fiqh school (like Hanafi/Shafii/Maliki/Hanbali divide among Sunnis), it's not an aqeeda school (like Athari/Maturidi/Ashari divide among Sunnis or Usuli/Akhbari divide among Twelver Shia) or anything.

Anyone who considers himself a Muslim (no matter what school he follows) considers himself a muwahhid (موحِّد) which means "a monotheist" in Arabic, literally a follower of tawhid (توحيد), monotheism, the central concept of Islam. It's just a term which is more often used as a self-description by Sunni Salafis to highlight their purism in contrast to anyone else (for example, Sufis have a practice of visiting graves of their sheikhs, Salafis see this act as a departure from the concept of tawhid in Islam. Although Sufis don't consider it as a violation of tawhid, they still see themselves as muwahhideen (monotheists). But anyone who claims to follow Islam, he by definition considers himself a muwahhid regardless). That's it. It's not a separate branch of Islam. It's just a "label" or a "trademark", so to speak. These categories are excessive and absolutely uncalled for. Sorry for bad formatting, by the way (I'm editing off my phone). Fixmaster (talk) 19:24, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, both articles in the tree are about Salafis and already categorized as such. Marcocapelle (talk) 19:49, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Socialist film directors[edit]

Propose deleting Category:Socialist film directors (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: delete, intersection of unrelated characteristics. A few of these articles may be moved to a Category:Victims of McCarthyism, but that would be a very different discussion. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:42, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Support per nom Mason (talk) 23:09, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Australian flour millers and merchants[edit]

Propose splitting Category:Australian flour millers and merchants to Category:Australian merchants and Category:Australian food industry businesspeople

Nominator's rationale: Dual merge. There's no parent category, and for the most part merchants aren't defined by whether they sold flour or not. Mason (talk) 03:14, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep In Australia millers commonly purchase the grain, mill it, and sell the flour, adding value. So they're millers by trade, not merchants. Doug butler (talk) 03:50, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly rename to Category:Australian flour millers and move people to the parent categories who do not qualify as a miller. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:52, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Australian commercial artists[edit]

Propose merging Category:Australian commercial artists to Category:Australian artists

Nominator's rationale: Non-defining type of artist. Notably there is not a parent category of commercial artists as far as I can find. Mason (talk) 02:56, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Commercial artists create their art for mass duplication: advertising, souvenirs etc. Not like portraitists etc. Doug butler (talk) 03:54, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge, it is almost impossible to differentiate notable artists by "commercial" as so many made a living out of it. If not merged, better rename it to something related to the kind of art. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:58, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Australian bigamists[edit]

Propose merging Category:Australian bigamists to Category:Bigamists

Nominator's rationale: There's no need to diffuse this category by nationality. Mason (talk) 02:54, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge by nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 04:59, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Australian event managers[edit]

Propose renaming Category:Australian event managers to Category:Australian event planners

Nominator's rationale: I'm on the fence about speedying this category, however, I'm not 100% sure that I've correctly mapped this category to the right parent of event planning. Mason (talk) 02:50, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Australian metal workers[edit]

Propose renaming Category:Australian metal workers to Category:Australian metalworkers

Nominator's rationale: There are three ways this category can be handled. Either rename this to match the parent category of Metalworkers, merge to Australian metalsmiths‎ or rename to reflect that the intent of this category Metal manufacturing companies of Australia‎. Mason (talk) 02:48, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Artesian people[edit]

Propose deleting Category:Artesian people (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: Non-defining for the only person in the category Maximilien Robespierre Mason (talk) 02:40, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:01, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Who were the Artesian people? –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 11:02, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Just for info, they are people from Artois (but I am not certain if Artesian is correct English). Marcocapelle (talk) 17:18, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Violence in the Palestinian territories[edit]

Propose merging Category:Violence in the Palestinian territories to Category:Violence in the State of Palestine

Nominator's rationale: merge, all four articles in the category are about events after the establishment of the State of Palestine. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:02, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom.

NLeeuw (talk) 06:36, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@@Marcocapelle: Do you think no category is needed for the broader Palestinian territories and the events before the state establishment? --Mhhossein ^talk 06:30, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Possibly. Which articles are you thinking of in particular? Marcocapelle (talk) 06:35, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
No special case at the moment, but there should be cases of violence ocurring in the Palestinian territories before the state establishment? --Mhhossein ^talk 06:47, 8 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
That's a good point. The State of Palestine didn't exist until 1988, while Palestinian territories have existed since 1967 (or 1949), depending on definition.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 09:25, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Ping me when you found some articles because then we do not need to merge. Until that happens the merge can go ahead, we do not keep empty categories. Marcocapelle (talk) 21:35, 10 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcocapelle: For the time being: 1956 Rafah massacre, Qibya massacre, and Khan Yunis massacre. --Mhhossein ^talk 05:33, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Mhhossein and Nederlandse Leeuw: shouldn't these articles be in Category:Gaza Strip and Category:West Bank Governorate? I don't think the concept of a unified Palestinian territories consisting of Gaza and the West Bank existed before 1967? Marcocapelle (talk) 05:57, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's a good question. I had always assumed that whatever area of the former British mandate of Palestine was not incorporated into the State of Israel after the war of 1948 was known as "Palestinian territories", but I would have to consult the historiography on this. NLeeuw (talk) 06:51, 11 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster (talk · he/they) 01:49, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Romans from Africa[edit]

Propose renaming Category:Romans from Africa to Category:Roman-era African people
Propose renaming Category:Ancient Romans by province to Category:Roman-era people by province

Nominator's rationale: rename, many of these people were not Romans. Aligning this with e.g. Category:Roman-era people by ethnicity. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:14, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Question By "(Ancient) Romans", do we mean "Roman citizens", or is it just anyone who is culturally / ethnolinguistically Roman or Romanised? As far as I can tell, Category:Ancient Romans is not in the Category:People by nationality tree, but through Category:Italic peoples it is in the Category:People by ethnicity tree. Main article Roman Africans defines them as the ancient populations of Roman North Africa that had a Romanized culture, some of whom spoke their own variety of Latin as a result. If there are non-Romans in this category, that means they should either be Purged, or we should Split this category into Roman Africans and Roman-era non-Roman Africans or something. NLeeuw (talk) 13:42, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
PS: By analogy to Category:Arabs in the Roman Empire, we could have Category:Africans in the Roman Empire, and Roman Africans and non-Roman Africans would be the two subsets of that. Basically, everyone who was an African but not a Roman could be put directly into that category, and everyone who was a "Roman African" could be put in the "Roman Africans" subcategory. NLeeuw (talk) 13:47, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- Category:Africans in the Roman Empire is also a good rename target. Marcocapelle (talk) 20:26, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  I like the rename target! Mason (talk) 22:57, 5 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  @Nederlandse Leeuw and Smasongarrison: at second thought the name might be confusing after all, because it seems to exclude African people from the Roman Republic. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:01, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  Fair point. I was worried about that already. This presumably isn't a problem for Category:Arabs in the Roman Empire then? The Nabataean Kingdom and Roman Judea were annexed after 27 BCE, but I'm not sure about the demographics of Coele-Syria (Roman province) (annexed in 64 BCE). Perhaps other scholars could correct me on this, but by my knowledge, Coele-Syria in the 1st century BCE was populated by a mixture of Greeks and Hellenised Aramaeans, Syriacs, and Jews / Samaritans, and Romans. I'm not sure there was a substantial population of "Arabs" there at a time (though no doubt the occasional Arabian merchant would pass through the region). If Arabs didn't form a significant population within the Roman Republic, perhaps this category doesn't have the same scope issues as our Roman-era Africans. NLeeuw (talk) 06:21, 6 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Some more explicit support/opposition to various potential names for the categories would be appreciated :)
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, House Blaster (talk · he/they) 01:42, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Africans in the Roman Empire appears to be more problematic than I initially thought, so I stand by the original nomination. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:04, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Would there be any objection to simply rename to Category:Roman Africans per WP:C2D Roman Africans, and perhaps purge some people who weren't "Roman" enough? NLeeuw (talk) 19:15, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- How much is "enough"? Marcocapelle (talk) 04:32, 15 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Australian newspaper proprietors[edit]

Propose merging Category:Australian newspaper proprietors to Category:Australian newspaper publishers (people)

Nominator's rationale: Duplicate category. Mason (talk) 01:26, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Three functions: Owner, publisher and editor. Often separated, for instance politicians may be newspaper owners but not publisher or editor. Influence without responsibility. Pastoralists may inherit a loss-making paper and subsidise its continued operation. Doug butler (talk) 01:59, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

There are no other categories in this tree that make that distinction. Further, I'm pretty sure that there's a cfd that closed on similar newpaper owners, if I'm recalling. Mason (talk) 02:43, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge, in many articles in both categories it is unclear whether they are about proprietors or about publishers without ownership. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:28, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Australian leather merchants[edit]

Propose merging Category:Australian leather merchants to Category:Australian merchants

Nominator's rationale: Do we really need to diffuse merchants by whether they sell leather? Mason (talk) 01:24, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Like steel merchants, corn merchants, ship merchants, drapers and stockbrokers, it's a specialized trade. Doug butler (talk) 02:13, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to both the proposed target and appropriate subcategories of Category:Leather manufacturers or Category:Tanners. An odd category without a nonexistent main article and no others like it. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 02:15, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

@Doug butler Please make sure to have non-Australian parent categories, when you create similar categories. Mason (talk) 02:43, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I try. Doug butler (talk) 04:03, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to Category:LaundryPizza03. Marcocapelle (talk) 05:12, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@Marcocapelle: Is this a mistake? What category did you intend? –LaundryPizza03 (dc̄) 11:03, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
- A pretty big mistake indeed. Merge per LaundryPizza03, is what was intended. Marcocapelle (talk) 17:13, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  😂😂😂😂 Mason (talk) 23:10, 13 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  LOL didn't know LaundryPizza's activities included being an Australian leather merchant! NLeeuw (talk) 19:16, 14 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]