Wikipedia:Categories for discussion/Log/2012 October 9

< October 8	October 10 >

October 9

Lists of office-holders by country

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: rename all. – Fayenatic London 20:52, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:Lists of English office-holders‎ to Category:Lists of office-holders in England

Nominator's rationale: These categories are of lists of office-holders by the country of the office and not, as the current names might suggest, lists of office-holders by nationality. The proposed naming format is the one that is used in Category:Lists of political office-holders by country. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 22:54, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note I have just added two further categories which I created after this nomination opened. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:24, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Rename all per nominator to clarify that the scope relates to offices in that country, rather than to offices held by people of a particular nationality. The new format was prompted by a brief discussion of a proposal by me to speedily rename some categories to the current format, and it mirrors that of the sub-category Category:Lists of political office-holders by country.
One possible concern relates to colonial offices, whose categorisation may be altered by this change. The discussion at speedy raised the example of List of Governors-General of India, which I think is a good illustration of an issue which will arise in a small but significant number of cases, so here's my take on it.
The Governor-General of India (GGI) held an office in India under the British crown. So the list of GGIs should be categorised under both offices in India and offices in the United Kingdom, because it related to a colony of the United Kingdom. In practice there are enough of these lists that we should should have a Category:Lists of British colonial governors and administrators (as a subcat of Category:British colonial governors and administrators)
The one type of list which I think will be excluded by the rename is where the scope relates to people of British nationality who held offices unrelated to the British state: such as a List of British people who held office in Bolivia (which has never been a British colony). They would be excluded by the rename, and if we do have any such lists I think it's a good idea to categorise them separately. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 10:45, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Rename all -- The problem of colonial officials may requiere a separate discussion. These are office holders of UK (or predecessors), though not in UK. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:04, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: List of New Zealand monarchs is a Category:Lists of New Zealand office-holders‎ but not a Category:Lists of office-holders in New Zealand (because our monarchs do not reside within the country). Would the renaming remove this? Stuartyeates (talk) 18:58, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I don't think it's a problem. Elizabeth II and her predecessors hold office in New Zealand, so they fit fine in the renamed category. However, they ain't New Zealanders, so shouldn't really be in the current categ. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 15:09, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Rename actually the issue of New Zealand monarchs shows why we need to do this. The monarch of New Zealand is not of New Zealand nationality. In this case the "in" means within the governmental structure of the nation in question. An ambassador of Russia holds office in Russia, even though he exercises his office in the country to which he is appointed ambassador.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:23, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Electric energy

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: merge both. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:29, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Propose upmerging or deleting

Category:Electric energy consumption to Category:Electric power
Category:Electric energy by country to Category:Electric power

Nominator's rationale: Unnecessary categories created by a banned user. Most of the contents are lists so should also be in Category:Energy-related lists Hugo999 (talk) 22:27, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support but we may need (and probably have) a separate category for things like the physics of electricity. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:06, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Physics of electricity is probably covered by Category:Electron? Hugo999 (talk) 12:24, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per nom.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:24, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Farm to Market Roads with dead ends

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: upmerge. – Fayenatic London 21:25, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Propose deleting Category:Farm to Market Roads with dead ends

Nominator's rationale: Overcategorization, unnecessary to have category for roads with dead ends. Dough 48 72 22:05, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Merge to parent Category:Farm to Market Roads in Texas. The nominator is right that this an overly-fine distinction, but merger is better than deletion because it will ensure that no articles are omitted from the parent category. (It doesn't matter if they are all in the parent already, 'cos the bot is clever enough to handle that). --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:54, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per BHG.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:25, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Merge per BHG. –Fredddie ™ 18:57, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Roque

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: Merge all to Category:Roque - jc37 06:09, 30 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Propose merging Category:Roque to Category:Croquet
Propose merging: Category:1904 in roque to Category:1904 in croquet
Propose merging: Category:Roque competitions by country to Category:Croquet competitions by country
Propose merging: Category:Roque in the United States to Category:Croquet in the United States
Propose renaming Category:Roque competitions in the United States to Category:Croquet competitions in the United States
Propose deleting: Category:Roque by year
Propose deleting: Category:Roque by country
Propose deleting: Category:Roque competitions
Propose deleting: Category:Roque at the 1904 Summer Olympics

Nominator's rationale: Merge. WP:SMALLCAT; this structure holds only 2 articles. The page Roque at the 1904 Summer Olympics is already in all other necessary categories. – Fayenatic London 12:27, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Category:Roque, but Merge the rest to Category:Roque. The game of Roque appears to have had a period of popularity in the early 20th-century, so there is scope for expansion, which means that WP:SMALLCAT does not apply.
However, the current proliferation of sub-categories is absurd when there are only 2 articles. Thanks to the nom for bringing this to CFD. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 13:30, 16 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.

Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, עוד מישהו Od Mishehu 20:10, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Category:Roque and upmerge to it; and merge to the suggested targets (except for Roque) ; this would place year/place articles into the Croquet category tree, while having a roque head category with no subdivisions. -- 70.50.149.56 (talk) 23:47, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: I accept keeping the head category:Roque with the two articles for the game and for the 1904 Olympic competition. That seems to give a consensus; I think the anon editor supports creating Category:Croquet competitions in the United States. If we do not do that, then the Olympic article should also be upmerged to Category:Sports competitions in the United States and Category:Croquet competitions. – Fayenatic London 16:30, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I'll support anything that retains Category:Roque. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 16:49, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Category:Roque, but Merge the rest to Category:Roque. Croquet is played on a lawn, roque on a hard surface. The games appear sufficiently similar for there to be some link between them, either as a cross-reference or sub-cat, but "Roque" ought to survive as a category, at least. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:11, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: that's also fine by me. Somebody just close the thing; there are only 2 articles, so we can add back any needed head categories afterwards. – Fayenatic London 21:41, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete and merge all per nom.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:26, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment: I have just found Category:Roque players at the 1904 Summer Olympics (and Category:Olympic roque players of the United States which contains the same 3 articles) and added their grandparent Category:Olympic roque players into the structure, which helps to justify keeping the top category:Roque. – Fayenatic London 21:23, 25 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:History of Venice after 1797

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: keep. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 03:24, 20 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:History of Venice after 1797 to Category:History of Venice (post Republic of Venice)

Nominator's rationale: Rename. Generally we avoid dates in categories for before or after topics. In this case, this appears to be about the history of Venice after the Republic of Venice ceased to exist. While there may be a better name, this is a starting point for discussion. Vegaswikian (talk) 19:11, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose -- The category may need as head note explaining the significance of the date, but its use ought to be unpobjectionale. We object to the use of dates in this context as an arbitrary period, but this is not an arbirary one; it is a change of era. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:14, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Oppose per PKI.John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:26, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:French engineers by Grande école

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: rename. A note to Euroflux: It's not about you. A long description of your contributions does nothing to bolster the case of the category. The category itself has to make sense to the other editors, and in this case it doesn't. Try not to be discouraged, but do try to take their advice to heart.--Mike Selinker (talk) 21:10, 4 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming Category:French engineers by Grande école to Category:Grandes écoles alumni

Nominator's rationale: Rename. This category is apparently supposed to group categories for alumni of several "grandes écoles". However, the current name suggests that all these alumni are French. Most of them obviously will be, but not all. Note that the daughter cats don't contain the word "French". Renaming the cat to "Grande école alumni" will bring the name more in line with out other alumni categories and remove any ambiguity. Guillaume2303 (talk) 16:57, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You forget that NOT all grandes écoles are engineering schools. The category only contains engineering schools. HEC and ENA are grandes écoles but do not train engineers. Euroflux (talk) 20:02, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Rename per nominator. This is purely a container category, so I have tagged with {{container category}}. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 17:04, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Leave it as it is This category is a subcategory of the Category:French engineers ; French engineers are sorted according to the school they did. HEC alumni or ENA alumni are "Grande école alumni" but they are NO engineers ! On the other hand, all alumni of French engineering schools who have their page in Wikipedia are French !! I challenge Guillaume2303 to show me one NON French person who :

is an alumnus of one French Top engineering school
has their page on Wikipedia.

One question to Guillaume2303 : why doesn't he try to sort Dutch neuroscientists instead of insisting on sorting out French engineers ? Euroflux (talk) 18:52, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Please stay with the subject. Dutch neuroscientists have nothing to do with the category under discussion. You should know by now that you should comment on the subject, not the person. --Guillaume2303 (talk) 19:26, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

OK, let's stick to the subject ; are you able to mention ONE NON French alumnus of a French engineering Grande école who has their page on Wikipedia ?? I have not seen one of them... Euroflux (talk) 19:38, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Your question is absolutely irrelevant. The grandes écoles don't limit attendance to French citizens only. Hence it's incorrect to name a container category the way you did, because the defining characteristic is not that the articles contained in these categories are about French people, but that they are about alumni of the grandes écoles. The fact that at this point (I haven't checked, I take your word for it) all alumni that are in WP are, indeed, French, is just a coincidence. Suppose all of them are male, would you then include the word "male" in the title of this category? Of course not. --Guillaume2303 (talk) 20:03, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

There is a complete confusion. I am not splitting the alumni of a given school by nationality ; I am splitting the category of French engineers by the school they attended which is very relevant according to the French usage. French engineering schools are characterized by very tough competitive exams, 2 or 3 years after baccalauréat. Those tough competitive exams explain the prestige of those schools. Those schools can welcome some foreign students; but it is mainly "diplomatic", according to some agreements passed with some partnering foreign Universities. Due to the difference in schooling systems, many students are unable to follow the classes, especially in math. Germans for example, have many difficulties to follow ; I have met as well some of those stidents who did not even master French ! Therefore a real "alumnus" of a French grande école remains the exception, at least on Wikipedia. Wikipedia deals with NOTABLE persons, not with the huge amount of Erasmus students ! I have seen on WP 3 cases of foreign alumni : one King of cambodge, Marwan Lahoud, Coanda, and Mikoyan (Mig planes). We can say that the overwhelming majority of alumni of French grandes écoles who are notable enough to have their page on WP are French ! A German alumnus, coming from Berlin having been a guest at a French schoool would be considered an alumnus of berlin University ! Again, can you give concrete examples instead of always talking "in theory" ?? Euroflux (talk) 19:55, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, but almost everything that you say above has nothing to do with the issue at hand. There is no problem with having a cat "French Engineers". And any French engineer could also have a cat "XYZ alumnus". That's the way we do things for all other schools/universities of all nationalities. It's also the logical way of doing this. That way, in the apparently unlikely case that in the probably far future a non-French person shows up who actually is brilliant enough to meet the grande ecole standards, we don't need to create a second category tree to accommodate that person. --Guillaume2303 (talk) 22:28, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Again the same question ; can you give me ONE example of a NON French person who is an alumnus of a French engineering Grande école and who is notable enough to have their page on Wikipedia ? I know Carlos Ghosn, Marwan Lahoud, and Coanda ; they were lebanese, Brazilian, Romanian ; they all obtained the French citizenship ! It is much easier to get the French citizenship than to be admitted into those schools... Your obsession with NON French alumni of French grandes écoles is ridiculous... Are you talking of ERASMUS programme ? Just give me one example and let us have a concreete conversation and stop hair splitting ..... Euroflux (talk) 22:55, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

As with previous discussions, it sometimes almost seems that you just don't want to understand what I'm saying. Have you not seen all the other votes here? You're the only one arguing that this is how things should be done. Everybody else tells you that we do things differently here. I don't have to provide an example of a non-French alumnus (and even less one that is also notable). If we have a category "French engineers" and categories of alumni by grande ecole, the whole problem is solved. --Guillaume2303 (talk) 23:00, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If the NON French alumnus is NON notable, then he has NO page of themselves on Wikipedia ! Wikipedia is only for notable people... My categories gather notable persons alumni of French engineering schools, and they are all French, contrary to what you say ! We are not going to make a page about every ERASMUS student spending a jolly semester in a French school ; I focus on NOTABLE persons, which is the goal of Wikipedia, isn't it ?

Here is my complete tree :

MY CATEGORIES ON EN:WP

Category:French engineers by Corps
Category:French engineers by Grande école
Category:Grandes écoles (French engineers)
Grandes écoles (other than engineering)

Euroflux (talk) 23:24, 12 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support Rename per nom. Not all alumni of Grand ecoles are French. --Bob247 (talk) 03:36, 10 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Rename per nominator. There is no need to split alumni categories by the nationality of the alumnus. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 20:54, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Rename We don't break down alumni by nationality. Pichpich (talk) 23:49, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Reanme Category:Grandes écoles alumni (Engineers). WE do not need a split by nationality, but neither the subject or the suggested target make it clear they are alumni categoriers and they all are. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:22, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Note that Euroflux's edits have completely screwed up the layout of this page (and as he reverts attempts to fix this, I'm not even trying). The proposal is to rename this to "Grandes écoles alumni" (not all of them are engineers), so as far as I see, the suggested target makes it clear that these are alumni categories. --Guillaume2303 (talk) 17:43, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The category object of the discussion is "French engineers by Grande école". It is a subcategory of "French engineers". This means that by definition all pages of this category are French engineers. The mother category "French engineers" is subdivised by :

"French engineers by Corps"

"French engineers by Grande école"

"French engineers by specialty"

Category:French engineers

   ► French engineers by Corps‎ (4 C)
   ► French engineers by Grande école‎ (11 C)
   ► French engineers by specialty‎ (12 C)

It is a typical feature of French society, which I explain in my articles, that French engineers are sorted by the school they did, and those schools have a hierarchy almost 200 years old !

On Wikipedia I am focusing on Aeronautics industry and on French engineers, in particular French aerospace engineers. This is a subject I know raher well. I know what I am talking about.

Four of my articles have already been accepted : Corps de l'armement, Grand Corps of the French State, Alain Bugat and Jean-Paul Herteman (2 top level french engineers and chief executives).

The article Corps de l'armement got just nominated candidate for reaching the B level in the Wiki Project Aviation.

Two other articles of mine are in the reviewing preocess AFC, about Marwan Lahoud, French Lebanese aerospace engineer and Chief executive officer of EADS France], and Henri Martre, top level engineer and Chief executive.

Marwan Lahoud is a typical example of Lebanese born person ; he came to France at the age of 15, entered Polytechnique at the age of 19 ; 3 years later he was a French citizen !

20 additional articles are under preparation in my sandbox ; those are mainly biographies of top level French engineers and articles about Aerospace industry and High tech colbertism, industrial economics.

I am a professional and I am doing a professional job on Wikipedia. I claim to know a little bit of something in the subjects I aù writing about, Aeronautics, French high tech organizations and French engineers.

Last year I did a presentation at Ecole polytechnique about the French Chinese University collaboration, especially concerning ENSTA, ISAE ; I have met a big number of foreign "guests" in French grandes écoles ; none of them has their page on Wikipedia... I think that I know better than Guillaume2303 the case of foreign students in Frenc grandes écoles. Those foreign students, in their overwhelming majority, spend some time in a French school as a "cherry on the cake", but they fundamentally remain alumni of the University they originate from... And those alumni on Wikipedia are only NOTABLE alumni... and they are 99.9% French, I am afraid !

I am now fed up with User:Guillaume2303 systematically destroying my work, reverting my edits, threatening to block me, sending me "last warnings"... Already 2 users remarked that he talked nonsense in the field of French grandes écoles and he recognises himself that he knows nothing about this subject.

I have nothing against Dutch people ; on Linkedin I have got excellent conversations with TU Delft alumni ; TU Delft is probably one of the best Aerospace schools in Europe.

If you have a look at the articles I am now writing or improving, you will understand that I have other fish to fry than wasting a lot of time to prevent my work from being systematically destroyed.

Euroflux (talk) 19:40, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

1 My articles admitted

   Corps de l'armement
   Grands corps de l'Etat
   Alain Bugat
   Jean-Paul Herteman

2 My articles for creation

   Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Marwan Lahoud 55
   Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Henri Martre450

3 My articles to be improved

   Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/AeroSpace and Defence Industries Association of Europe
   User:Euroflux/Bundesverband der Deutschen Luft- und Raumfahrtindustrie
   User:Euroflux/École supérieure des techniques aéronautiques et de construction automobile
   User:Euroflux/High tech Colbertism
   Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Elie Cohen (French economist)
   User:Euroflux/Yannick d'Escatha
   User:Euroflux/Laurent Collet-Billon
   User:Euroflux/Pierre-Henri Gourgeon
   Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Yves Sillard
   User:Euroflux/Frédéric van Roekeghem
   User:Euroflux/Direction générale des télécommunications
   User:Euroflux/Gérard Théry
   User:Euroflux/Henri Serres
   User:Euroflux/Corps de l'aviation civile
   User:Euroflux/Conseil général de l'armement
   Wikipedia talk:Articles for creation/Hermann Östrich
   User:Euroflux/François Lureau
   User:Euroflux/Conseil d'analyse économique
   User:Euroflux/École nationale du génie rural, des eaux et des forêts
   User:Euroflux/Corps du génie rural, des eaux et des forêts

Here is the categorization of French engineers on the French WP :

1 Catégorie:Ingénieur français

   1.1 fr:Catégorie:Ingénieur aéronautique français
   1.2 fr:Catégorie:Ingénieur français par corps‎
       1.2.1 [×] Ingénieur du corps de l'armement‎ – 19 P
       1.2.2 [×] Ingénieur du corps des mines‎ – 174 P
       1.2.3 [×] Ingénieur du corps des ponts et chaussées‎ – 224 P
       1.2.4 [×] Ingénieur du corps des télécommunications‎ – 8 P
   1.3 fr:Catégorie:Ingénieur français par école‎
       1.3.1 fr:Catégorie:Catégorie:Élève de l'École nationale des ponts et chaussées‎
       1.3.2 fr:Catégorie:Catégorie:Élève de l'École nationale supérieure de mécanique et d'aérotechnique de Poitiers‎
       1.3.3 fr:Catégorie:Élève de l'École de l'air

It is the same categorization as on the English WP (with only one specialty : Aerospace).

Again and again : this category is about FRENCH NOTABLE ENGINEERS, not about Erasmus students ! Euroflux (talk) 22:04, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Rename to Category:Grandes école (engineering) alumni or whatever the category of all engineering Grande école currently at a different CFD ends up being named. How impressive the quality or volume of work you have done on these articles is not really relevent to this discussion, nor does it mean you WP:OWN them, or the directory structure that holds them. I do not believe you have given a compelling reason why French engineers should use a different categorisation system to the rest of English Wikipedia, or a different and potentially inaccurate or ambiguous naming scheme for that system.

There are clearly members of these alumni categories that are not French: (Driss Ben-Brahim and Mehdi Bazargan are two of the first 5 alphabetically in the first category I looked in). Is your proposed solution to remove these and leave them with no alumni category? To split the alumni categories by nationality? As a category "about FRENCH NOTABLE ENGINEERS, not about Erasmus students", is an unneccesary and unprecedented split and I and others would be arguing to delete. But as a container category for the categories it currently contains (which are part of the alumni system not the engineering system), it has value. --Qetuth (talk) 06:16, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Both of your examples are very dubious ! Does Driss Ben-Brahim deserve a page on Wikipedia ? Is he notable enough ? Morocco, as you may know, is not exactly France, but a former French "protectorate", and a French speaking country. His page has no reliable sources... What does this man do exactly ? He has no profile on the French Wiki, which is rather paradoxical for a supposed alumnus of Ecole centrale Paris. Mehdi Bazargan is disputed as well. I can read that he received from Centrale a diploma in "thermodynamics" ; Centrale delivers a "generalist" diploma ; on the Talk page, there is a dispute about whether he did centrale or Normale Sup... Both those profiles should be checked. The name you propose has a huge spelling mistake Category:Grandes école (engineering) alumni !! Euroflux (talk) 09:05, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you think Driss Ben-Brahim is not sufficiently notable then by all means start and AfD (but given that the Financial Times wrote an article about him changing jobs, I'm guessing this would be speedy closed). You asked for an example, you got one. Pichpich (talk) 14:31, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I copied and pasted my suggested category name from a currently existing category to ensure I got spelling right, can you be more specific as to the error? I noticed that it had Grandes not Grande, which was why I was careful to copy from an existing category which had the same usage. As to the rest of your reply, I'm not sure I followed your argument but it sounds like you're suggesting Morocco is not 'really' a country, so a Moroccan doesn't count as a non-French graduate as you asked for. Wikipedia:News_sources/Europe#UK lists as reliable most of the sources of the article you say has none. And where is this talk page dispute concerning the second example? Talk:Mehdi Bazargan has only project tags.

All of this, however, is nothing to do with the argument at hand. Disputing whether a supposed graduate really graduated, or if a specific article should be deleted, or whether someone could possibly have graduated from a French institution and yet somehow not have a page on French Wikipedia, does not address the issues raised. I think it has been clearly demonstrated that it is not impossible, or even improbable, for a notable non-French engineer to be an alumnus of a Grande école. There are some such articles currently in existence, even if they do one day get deleted or revised. So long-existing alumni categories should not have be moved into a category that specifies nationality. --Qetuth (talk) 12:30, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Concerning Mehdi_Bazargan, it is very unclear what studies he really did... some sources say he did "Normale Sup", some other say "Centrale", some others he did the University in Paris...Selon l'ouvrage de Yvonnick Denoël : 1979. Guerres secrètes au Moyen-Orient, p. 61 , Mehdi Bazargan aurait fait Normale Sup, économiste de formation, et un des dirigeants du Front national iranien. Ce qui est sensiblement différent de l'article wiki The son of a merchant, Mr. Bazargan was born in 1907 in Azerbaijan, though the exact date and details are not known. He studied engineering for six years at the University of Paris in the 1930's and earned a degree in thermodynamics. The sentence : "he received a degree in thermodynalmics at Centrale" does not mean that he is an alumnus... Some students of Paris University may take some classes at Centrale... very unclear... Euroflux (talk) 10:01, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The case Driss ben Brahim is even more dubious... This kind of article is always a pain because it contains a story fuelled by media hype. Both Goldman Sachs and Ben-Brahim's wife have denied that he made £50 million This stub is a good candidate for removal... where is the notability ? Euroflux (talk) 10:09, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

"Grande école" is rather snubbish and will not be used by French natives. On the French WP they talk of "écoles" ; if you name the "école" you know whether it is more or less "grand" ; the écoles which call themselves "grandes écoles" are precisely the ones which are small... And "Grande école" might be as well from Québec or Belgium. The best title for the category would be more simply Category:French engineering schools alumni. It is important to have both "French" and "engineering" in the title since the mother category is Category:French engineers. Therefore Category:French engineering schools alumni would contain both alumni of French engineering schools AND French alumni of engineering schools ; and everybody would be happy ! Euroflux (talk) 17:11, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Have a look ! French Engineering Schools Alumni in Australia Engineering schools' alumni are top achievers ; I think that everybody of good faith will agree with the new title : Category:French engineering schools alumni. And now I confess that I am slightly fed up with this hairsplitting... Good night to all of you and thanks for coming ! Euroflux (talk) 17:24, 15 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Haha, coming into this late I had assumed it was the influence of French natives that we were using the French term, rather than something like what you suggested. I stand corrected. I wouldn't have a problem at all with something like 'French engineering school alumni', or 'Alumni of French engineering schools', as I think they are a lot clearer than any other choices I've yet seen. --Qetuth (talk) 10:05, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I agree, this is an acceptable category name, as opposed to the original one that Euroflux proposed. However, it should obviously not be placed in the category "French engineers", but integrated into the "alumni" category tree by adding it to rhe Category:Alumni by university or college in France‎. In addition, the rankings introduced by Euroflux should be reverted, as categories are for navigation, not ranking (that can be done in an article but is inappropiate use of a category).

Apart from that, I have not much inclination to react to the ranting posted below by Euroflux and his speculations/accusations about my motives (but let me state that I have never studied at any French school, speak French well enough to function as a "fr:haute fonctionaire", and am very supportive of the French research system). I suggest to Euroflux to stop the rantings about foreigners coming to France to study/work there and to read the article here on the meaning of the word alumnus. Please discuss the issues at hand, stop commenting on other users and their perceived motives, and stop throwing large walls of text into discussions like this. And, finally, please show me one occasion where I have insulted you (I know there are lots the other way around, but I think I have never commented on anything else than on the issues at hand). Thanks. --Guillaume2303 (talk) 13:43, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

For any French native Category:Grandes écoles alumni sounds utterly ridiculous ! Who created this ridiculous category ? Certainly not a French native ! Here is the culprit : Je suis User:Timrollpickering sur le Wikipedia d'Anglais. Ma Francais est abominable. Let us have a look at his contributions on the French Wiki ; a typical Welsh Erasmus student who confesses that his French is "abominable"... His contributions are about Université de La Rochelle, Université de Franche-Comté, Université du pays de Galles.... nothing to do with French "grandes écoles"...

In French "grandes écoles" you have to make a difference between "alumnus" and "postgraduates". "Alumni" were selected through a very tough competitive exam whereas "postgraduates" came through a much easier process... All engineering schools have in their research labs postgraduates who may come from different places... Of course, in order to flatter their own egos those postgraduates tend to present themselves as "alumni" in order to inherit the prestige... and this affirmation is often tolerated... Just an example.... I met once in a linguistic exchange party a Greek computer scientist spending some time at the Ecole normale supérieure, the top of the crop of the French "grandes écoles", in the frame of a PhD... I was so surprised to state that after 4 months spent at Normale Sup in the frame of his research he did not speak one word of French - his English was perfect though - !!!! He now probably claims that he is an "alumnus" of Normale Sup and France will not contradict him in order to be "diplomatic" with a foreign country... But it is very clear that nobody can enter Normale Sup "properly" unless he masters the French language... I strongly suspect that User:Guillaume2303 belongs to the same category, which explains why he is so tough about preventing the categories about French grandes écoles to be clarified. I guess that Guillaume2303 was admitted for a limited period of time in a French school with lower middle ranking... His ego might be flattered that he might be considered an "alumnus" of a "Grande école" even if he was nothing more than a "postgraduate"; but this school is obviously not a top one... that is why Guillaume2303 removed Palmarès 2012 des écoles d'ingénieurs après bac + 2 my link about the ranking of the French engineering schools ; this ranking is not "official" but is commonly admitted since 200 years by everybody in France. I know very well the case of German students being "guests" in French engineering "grandes écoles"... Their French was rather poor and they were unable to follow the classes due to the high math level requested. Before entering a French top engineering schools most French students study very harshly math and physics at a high theoretical level. The classes within those schools take for garanted a high level in math. The German schooling system is much more practical and has a much lower level in math. On the other hand French students are bad in practical training... Those German students generally become bitter with the French system because of their difficulties to adapt to the system. Guillaume2303's attitude towards me, very aggressive and very insulting very much reminds me of those german students' attitude... I would like to stress that I have much respect towards TU Delft and I have quite a few professional contacts with some of their alumni ; TU Delft counts among the best Aerospace Universities in the World... but their schooling system is different ! It is a system adapted to Northern Europeans, Germans, Britons, Scandinavians,... whereas the French system is more adapted to Russians, Eastern countries which have a high level in math...

Just to conclude in a humoristic tone ; I saw some years ago a book written by a French Duchess about French "good manners" ; one of her advices was never to talk in a social conversation about the respectives merits of the Grandes écoles, to discuss which one is the best, etc... "Grandes écoles" is a very touchy subject in France because it touches the heart of French society... What surprises me is to see that the French "Grandes écoles" subject is a very hot subject on the English Wikipedia too... And I am so surprised to see that my most ferocious contradictor is a user who openly claims to be a Dutch neuroscientist who works in a CNRS-INSERM unit in Bordeaux. He claims to have a PhD and he even boasts about being a very productive scientific writer... He spends his time saying that I am stupid, that my reasonings are "weird", that he knows better than I do the French "grandes écoles" system... When I asked him what was his connection to the French grandes écoles system, he answered me that he was afraid that I might "harass" him... A strange answer, isn't it ? Euroflux (talk) 11:21, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Just one more remark: I have never said you were stupid; I have never claimed to know the French grandes écoles systelm better than you (but I have claimed to know the English WP better); my connections or lack thereof to said system are immaterial; I do not state anywhere on my userpage that I work in a CNRS-INSERM unit in Bordeaux (I don't); I don't want to be identified on WP anymore because I have in the past been harassed off-wiki (not by you); and you yourself have been indefinitely blocked from the French Wikipedia, in part because of off-wiki harassment. Please read WP:OUTING for our applicable policies in this area. --Guillaume2303 (talk) 13:50, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry, but I did not invent any thing about you ; you claim a lot of things about yourself and ON WP : Comment I guess you're not familiar with the French academic system: French public universities don't have "named chairs" or "distinguished professors"... And an IFR is just a loose collaboration between local institutes that have some interests in common, to set up some shared platforms or organize a seminar series. It's not a "physical entity", so to say. Being director of one of those is not a huge deal and certainly does not come close to satisfying PROF#5. And the fact that there are people from different universities/national institutes working at the institutes that are part of the IFR is nothing exceptional either, this is the rule in France (my own institute has people from 2 different Bordeaux universities, CNRS, and INSERM...). I'm not saying Dubourdieu is not notable, just saying that the things you list don't imply notability. . You claimed as well that you know better than French natives the French schooling system, and ON Wikipedia. Your User page is very.... overinflated ! And you just claimed above to be a French "haut fonctionnaire" ("high civil servant") making a big spelling mistake contradicting your assertion that you master the French language. Euroflux (talk) 14:18, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I think that now everybody has been convinced that Category:French engineering schools alumni is the best choice for renaming ; let us close this long hairsplitting ! Euroflux (talk) 12:45, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I'm certainly not convinced and I see no sign that Bob247, BrownHairedGirl or Peterkingiron have been convinced. I'm not even sure it's Guillaume2303's preferred solution. The initial rename proposal matches the article Grandes écoles and I still think we should go with that. But of course, I'm just another bumbling idiot. Pichpich (talk) 14:31, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't been convinced by the ranting and personal attacks seen above by User:Euroflux. IMO, all should still be renamed per nom and the user issuing personal attacks should be blocked for a period of time as he has had multiple warnings in the past. --Bob247 (talk) 14:31, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

More current discussions

I have added this heading as the use of headings above has disrupted the structure of the page. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:24, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

I've fixed the structure caused by the abuse of headers. WP:BOLD -- 70.24.247.66 (talk) 02:56, 14 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Merge and remove false parents. There was never a concessus to strip Category:Grandes écoles alumni or its contents, it was done unilaterally in a way that removed many of the components of that category from the proper alumni tree. This category should not be limited to people who are French. We categorize alumni by the institution they come from, not by their nationality. We generally avoid splitting the alumni of an institution by nationality. The current category is just totally out of line with policy.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:15, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment above their was a call to name one non-French person who was an alumni of one of the schools involved and thus undermined the "French" in the category name. Mehdi Bazargan was the first one I came across. However I came across many other people who were not engineers even though they had attended these engineering focused schools.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:21, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Do you have a proof that Mehdi Bazargan was an alumnus of Centrale Paris ? There is no confirmation. He might have "spent some time" at Centrale Paris, maybe as a "guest"... This is French diplomacy... I know of a top engineering school which welcomed many Brazilian "guests" some years ago, just at a time where France wanted to sell Rafale planes to Brazil... Foreign guests in top French schools is very often part of French foreign diplomacy... A former King of Cambodge claimed to be an alumnus of a top French school ; he did not even speak French !!! And again and again , I am not sorting the alumni by nationality, I am sorting French engineers by engineering schools... and many French engineers may have been guests at MIT, Harvard, Princeton, but rthey do not even mention it, because nobody gives a damn in France, like nobody gives a damn about French schools abroad... And why do you use this snubbish appellation "Grandes écoles" ??? French nativee never say "grandes écoles" in French. The only ones who use the wording "grandes écoles" are the Dutch Erasmus students, when they go back to netherlands, in order to impress their girl friend... And the only schools which call themselves "grandes écoles" are the smallest ones ! This hairsplitting is utterly ridiculous ! Euroflux (talk) 18:41, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Another example is Alfred Belpaire who was a Belgian alumni of the same institution as Bazargan. Belgians are not French.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:31, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Very funny example ! Belpaire was born in 1820. The Kingdom of Belgium was created in 1831. Therefore Belpaire was not born Belgian !! He was obviously French speaking, since he studied in Anvers. He was a Wallon, therefore French. If he had been Flemish, therefore Dutch, he could never have applied to the examinations...Euroflux (talk) 18:56, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

You need to brush up your history: In 1820, Belgium (including Wallonia) was part of the Kingdom of The Netherlands. So he was born Dutch, if you insist. Silly disputes like this are the reason that we don't emphasize nationality too much in articles on older people. This is also one of the reasons why we keep alumni categories separate from nationality categories. A person can be categorized as a "French engineer" and at the same time as "XYZ school alumni". If we follow your scheme, then, as I have pointed out before, we run the risk that at some point in the future the unthinkable happens and a foreigner actually manages to graduate from a French grande école (yes, I know, those don't exist and only Dutch Erasmus students call them that way when they brag to their girlfriends, but for some reason you still cling to the term in the categories that you propose), then we would have to change the whole category tree. So it really is immaterial what Belpaire's nationality was (although for certain he was not French, I'd say he was Belgian). --Guillaume2303 (talk) 19:24, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Really? He speaks French so he's French? It would seem simpler to just admit that you are wrong and there are non-French alumni in French schools. I'm not sure you're interested but there are millions of Wallons, French-speaking Swiss, Quebecers, Acadians, Franco-Manitobans, whose mother tongue is French and they would like you to know that they are not French and for the most part don't particularly wish they were. Pichpich (talk) 21:27, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

And he probably was a Flemish speaker: he was born in the Flemish town of Oostende and went to high school in "Anvers", the French name for the Flemish city of Antwerpen... Of course, the fact that he's an alumnus of a Grande école, is proof that he was French, as we non-French are all too stupid for that... (We only brag to our girl friends... :-) --Guillaume2303 (talk) 21:39, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

H Alfred Jules BELPAIRE

    Né en 1820
   Décédé en 1893 , à l’âge de 73 ans

Parents

   Antoine BELPAIRE, Notaire 1789-1839
   1m 55
   mémoire sur les changements de la côte de la mer du Nord, depuis la conquête de César

   Marie CIREZ 1790-1843

Union(s) et enfant(s)

   Marié vers 1862 avec M Elise DUFOUR 1838-1872 dont
       Alfred BELPAIRE, Ingénieur des Mines 1864-1903
       Marthe BELPAIRE 1871-1945

Frères et sœurs

   H Alphonse BELPAIRE 1817-1854

Arbre d'ascendance Arbre de descendance Aperçu de l'arbre

All members of his family have good all French names.... His father had been French ; Wallons are ethnical French people ; they never fit into the flemish culture.... Today, the vast majority of Wallons would like to be French.... He obviously received his whole education in French ! You cannot apply for Centrale in Dutch !!! Ridiculous hairsplitting....

In professional terms, if you speak of "French" engineers you speak of French speaking engineers ; it can be considered synonymous ! If you say "English" Wikipedia, they may be Scottish, Irish, Australian, American, Canadian... Let us stop this ridiculous ethnical hair splitting.

Antoine Belpaire, his father, born in 1789 and dead in 1839 was obviously French, and French speaking.... and Alfred as well !

I wrote an article about Marwan Lahoud, Lebanese Maronite ; he was born lebanese ; he entered Polytechnique and then he became French !!!!!

it is more difficult to enter a top notch engineering school than to receiove the French citizenship.... Euroflux (talk) 22:15, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

If you're going to proclaim that the vast majority of Wallons would like to be French, the least you could do is research the claim. The one article I remember reading on the subject [1] is more than a year old but in the midst of the worst constitutional crisis of Belgium, Wallons wishing to be merged with France were still clearly in the minority. Interestingly there was a majority of French people favoring the annexation of Wallonia in the event of the disintegration of Belgium. I suppose you're part of that majority although perhaps you'd only favor the annexation of smart Walloons. And I can't resist pointing out that the most recent high-profile Franco-Belgian transfer is a French École Polytechnique alumni who asked for Belgian citizenship. Pichpich (talk) 22:48, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment another example was William Le Baron Jenney who was a classmante of Eiffel at the specific Grandes ecole in question.John Pack Lambert (talk) 18:36, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment if they are taking classes at the institution they become alumni, whatever the institution calls them. I do not like the snobbishness of calling some students "guests". That is not the way international students have been treated at any university I attended, even when they were only there for a semester as part of a foriegn exchange program, they were still considered to be fully students, and I would put them in the relevant alumni categories. I guess I am just not enough of a snob to be French. It is also telling that no one has yet been able to attack Jenney's standing as an alumni of the school in question.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:24, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
As we use the term in wikipedia, French means a national of the country of France. Those who speak France in Belgium, Switzerland, Morocco, Canada and Benin are not French.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:26, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment User:Euroflux's irrelevant and quite wrong rantings should not be taken as an indication of all French people. It is quite wrong to assume that just because someone's name sounds French that they themselves are French. Belpaire was Belgian. I have seen no credible evidence stating that he is French. Furthermore, Mehdi Bazargan is not French and is an alumnus of the École Centrale des Arts et Manufactures per Britannica. However, as stated previously, this whole line of discussion is completely irrelevant as we do not divide alumni by nationality within categories. Therefore, the nominators rationale is solid and all the rantings to the contrary, which have been littered by personal attacks, have not been able to dissuade my, or as it seems anybody else's, position. Moreover, User:Euroflux should read WP:OWN per his claims above. --Bob247 (talk) 05:37, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

again and again : in 1820, date of birth of Belpaire there was no Belgium !!! Belpaire belongs to a Wallon French speaking family ; have you ever opened a history & geography book in your life ? His father had necessarily been French thanks to Napoleon ; his whole family was French ; he hardly could speak Dutch... What do you know about him ???

Mehdi Bazargan earned adegree in thermodynamics at the University of Paris, which is already an outstanding achievement for an Azeri speaking student whose date of birth is not known with precision... As a thermodynamics student in Paris he must have attended some classes at Centrale, as a guest. Centrale is nicknamed "Piston" because of the importance of thermodynamics in this school. In Iran spread the legend that the big ayatollah was an "alumnus" of Centrale... and you'd better not contradict the big ayatollah if you are an Iranian ! I noticed that the article gave some Iranian sources... Iranian propaganda ! ;-)

and again and again and again - please read the above text before repeating always the same arguments ; NOBODY EVER DIVIDED ALUMNI PER NATIONALITY ; the category divides French engineers by the French engineering schools they did ; where is the problem ?? Euroflux (talk) 18:01, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Belpaire was Dutch by birth. Whether or not he could speak Netherlandish is not at all relevant to his being a Dutch national at birth. Wallons are not French. We do not limit alumni cats to a specific nationality. What next Category:American Harvard Law School alumni?John Pack Lambert (talk) 20:31, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category: Fictional popes

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: delete. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 02:07, 29 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Category:Fictional popes. Patent nonsense. Found this category going through the 'Popes' category. Benkenobi18 (talk) 12:50, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Delete or at least remove articles vaguely related to fictional popes. Oculi (talk) 13:16, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - In the midst of ten miscategorized articles (which I will remove now) about works of fiction, as well as two articles about legends (Jewish pope Andreas, Pope Joan), the category contains four articles about fictional popes: Giggerota, Cardinal Lamberto, Peter Mathews (Left Behind) and Pope Urban X. None of them is of particularly good quality, so I will see if they could be merged to various lists of characters. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 19:07, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
I merged Peter Mathews (Left Behind) to a list of characters, but several articles (and a handful of redirects) remain in the category. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 20:40, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete -- While I disagree that this is nonsense, List of fictional popes contains a long list of potential members of the category, but that is largely a list of novels. I think it improbable we will need an article on many of the fictional popes (as opposed to the books). I therefore think we should mmerely stick with the list. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:30, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete to specific to function within the general set of fctional x categories.John Pack Lambert (talk) 04:29, 18 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:2010s Japanese animated television series

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: merge. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:30, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Propose merging Category:2010s Japanese animated television series to Category:2010s anime series

Nominator's rationale: These two categories are the same, however, Category:2010s anime series keeps the naming convention of parent category Category:2010s anime. Anime is the common term for Japanese animation and is in wide use (go into any FYE or other video store). —Farix (t | c) 11:49, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Merge per nom --Qetuth (talk) 05:15, 11 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Category:Shopping venues in Lebanon

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: delete. BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:18, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Propose deleting Category:Shopping venues in Lebanon (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Nominator's rationale: There is neither an established tree of Category:Shopping venues nor, for that matter, a clear definition of "shopping venue" that differentiates it from any other type of retail building. I moved a number of articles to Category:Shopping districts and streets in Lebanon, leaving just three misplaced articles about retail companies. -- Black Falcon ^(talk) 04:59, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support. We also do not classify businesses by every place that they operate in which appears to be the inclusion criteria for 2 of the three articles. Category:Retail buildings seems like the best tree match for what might be intended here or maybe Category:Companies of Lebanon. Vegaswikian (talk) 05:26, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Delete -- This is far too similar to a performance by performer category. I agree with Vegaswikian. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:33, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

More Chinese sports categories

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: merge 1, rename 3. No clear actions specified for the last two, so no consensus on them. --BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:22, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Propose upmerging

Category:Sport deaths in the People's Republic of China to Category:Sport deaths in China

Propose renaming

Category:Horse races in the People's Republic of China to Category:Horse races in China
Category:Athletics venues in People's Republic of China to Category: Athletics venues in China
Category:People's Republic of China sport stubs to Category:China sport stubs
Category:Chinese sportspeople stubs (?); subcategories are PRC….
Re Category:National Games of the People's Republic of China and subcategories; possibly leave as the category follows the article titles?

Nominator's rationale:: additional PRC categories to rename or upmerge. Hugo999 (talk) 03:27, 9 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Support assuming there is no ambiguity in the target with Taiwan. Peterkingiron (talk) 16:48, 13 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

Horse racing, Swimming in China

The following is an archived discussion concerning one or more categories. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on an appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the discussion was: rename 2, merge 1 (as nominated). BrownHairedGirl (talk) • (contribs) 14:29, 16 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Propose renaming

Category:Horse racing in the People's Republic of China to Category:Horse racing in China
Category:Swimming in the People's Republic of China to Category:Swimming in China

Propose upmerginging

Category:Sport in the People's Republic of China to Category:Sport in China

Nominator's rationale: Most of the subcategories of Category:Sport in China by sport are just “… in China” already.

Hugo999 (talk) 13:46, 8 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The above is preserved as an archive of the discussion. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the category's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this section.