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December 25

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Category:The Pretender (TV series) characters

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The result of the debate was delete. Timrollpickering 02:53, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:The Pretender (TV series) characters (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Delete - Cat had two entries, one of which was a stub that I redirected to the main show article per WP:FICT and the other of which is the main show article. No need for the cat at all. Otto4711 20:27, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Rocky locations

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The result of the debate was delete. Timrollpickering 02:52, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, not appropriate to categorize real places by fictitious events. -- ProveIt (talk) 18:23, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Daniel Brandt

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The result of the debate was delete. Timrollpickering 02:51, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, not quite notable enough for a self-named category. -- ProveIt (talk) 18:15, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Game show panelist categories

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The result of the debate was delete. Timrollpickering 02:50, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Per precedent set by Hollywood Squares panelists. Otto4711 18:05, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"like the 'Guest stars on The Simpsons' categories of the past which have been deleted. A panelist may have been in the studio for all of an hour or two. Their connection to the show is just above being tenuous;"
"Delete Entertainment appearance categories should be restricted to roles people filled on a regular basis over a period of time;"
"We shouldn't categorise people by guest appearance."
Most of the panelists I remember were not guests; the "guests" were the people who came on the show with a secret, or a hard-to-guess job. When I hear the word "panelists," I usually think of the regulars on the game shows from the 50s--What's My Line, I've Got a Secret, To Tell the Truth--people such as Kitty Carlysle, Peggy Cass, Orson Bean, Henry Morgan, Jayne Meadows, Betsy Palmer, who seemed to be some kind of celebrities, but who were otherwise completely unknown to me. Over the years, I've learned that most of them had some kind of entertainment-related career, rather than just being New York socialites or over-the-hill party girls. If somebody was interested enough in one of the panel shows to find it and read it, he would probably be interested in the panelists. If he was interested in that show's panelists, he might be interested in panel shows and panelists generally. The tree of specific show panelist categories, leading up to American games show panelists or something similar, seems to me to be the best way to organize this data. Some of the shows have lists of panelists included or on a separate page, but som of the ones that I just looked at seem to be less comprehensive than the categories, probably because somebody editing the Dorothy Kilgallen article would look for categories that she fit into but might not edit the What's My Line article to make sure that she's on whatever list is there. OTOH, I think that lists attached to panel show articles are the best solution for "guest panelists," such as this one: List of What's My Line? guest panelists. Same for guest stars on other shows, especially if being on the show has a special cachet, such at the Simpsons. --Hjal 21:49, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I wouldn't have a problem with converting these categories into list articles. But there are reasons not to create seperate categories for guest-actors-by-series, and that includes game show panelists. You're correct that in many cases these are "recurring guests", which is more of a grey area, but even there my opinion is that if the information can easily be obtained from a main article or a cast-list subarticle about the TV series in question, it should probably not be a category. Dugwiki 18:56, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete/listify, not a defining characteristic. >Radiant< 13:06, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Category clutter. Honbicot 16:14, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Listify. As creator of several of the above categories, I don't really care how the content lives on. If the current thought is that a category serves the content poorly, I have no objection. There is no reason to purge otherwise appropriate content due to qualms over its form, though. Erechtheus 20:42, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep now. Two more points. First, it is clear that for dozens of people that their 5 to 20 years as panelists on nationally broadcast network game shows is their primary claim to fame--that sounds like a "defining characteristic" to me. Second, I just checked the histories of each of the categories under discusion and then the talk pages of four of the creators--apparently no notice had been given to the first editors of these articles about the discussion here until I notified them. Unless there has been some other notice given by another means, I suggest that this discussion stay open for a reasonable period so that they may comment here if they so choose. (One just came in while I was composing this.) --Hjal 20:57, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I think it's something that's very useful. If you want to listify it great, but there's lots of info here and it should be kept in some form. --Woohookitty(meow) 06:07, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Those for whom such appearances are career defining are in a small minority. Nathanian 20:20, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep or a least Listify. There is some useful information here that is not really available anywhere else. I created & contributed to the Just a Minute category and it there is no website that lists previous panellists of this cult programme.Tony Corsini 23:11, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - In many of these instances, the panelists were regular cast members. I think this would then fall under Radio/TV series cast members. If consensus to delete, please listify. - jc37 13:42, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete all. Not a defining characteristic. (Is Buck Owens known because he appeared on a game show? Hard to tell, his article doesn't mention it. When I see categories like this, am I supposed to expect that the point made by the category is oh-so-obvious that no one has bothered to add some text on it to the article yet?) Dagnabit 14:35, 30 December 2006 (UTC) (And wouldn't it be great if all of the Law & Order actor categories only included people who were not regulars, and not hundreds of people who just guest starred once?)[reply]
  • Comment Isn't the point of this project incremental updating? Some users specialize in providing information (like Buck Owens as a game show panelist), while others may specialize in editing such information into the article in a coherent fashion. If we judge worthiness by what is currently included, what is the point of allowing future edits? Erechtheus 18:01, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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AMD, ATI

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The result of the debate was rename. Timrollpickering 03:01, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

rename as main page name.Viacosa 15:22, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Famous Anti-Sathya Sai Baba activists

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The result of the debate was rename to Category:Critics of Sathya Sai Baba. Timrollpickering 03:04, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from Speedy Timrollpickering 14:58, 25 December 2006 (UTC) [reply]

Comment: Wouldn't Category:Critics of Sathya Sai Baba be a better name?
Comment: I strongly support the suggestion that it should be Category:Critics of Sathya Sai Baba M Alan Kazlev 00:24, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - whichever of these is best, this is NOT within the scope of a speedy renaming and should be debated in the main section, below. Grutness...wha? 08:11, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. This is apparently intended as the complement of Category:Famous followers of Sathya Sai Baba. They should be named (or renamed) similarly. -Will Beback · † · 19:10, 25 December 2006 (UTC) (PS: 10:04, 26 December 2006 (UTC))[reply]
Comments. First, I'm not sure why someone edited my signature. Secondly, when entries are removed fromWikipedia:Categories for discussion/Speedy, shouldn't the proposer be informed, and some indication given (also at the Category page itself) as to where they've been moved to (or even that they haven't simply been deleted)? Thirdly, User:Kkrystian, instead of posting here, edited my proposal at the Category page. Fourthly, I also prefer Category:Critics of Sathya Sai Baba; I'm not happy with Category:Famous followers of Sathya Sai Baba, again because most the people in the category aren't at all famous. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 00:14, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I agree. It should be Category:Followers of Sathya Sai Baba, omitting the "famous". -Will Beback · † · 06:57, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Why even bother renaming it? It does not appear to be a notable category for Wikipedia, shouldn't this discussion be about deleting this category instead? All entries would be restored back into [[Category:Sathya Sai Baba]] which, in my opinion, should not have been divided in the first place. The divisions seem inappropriate to me. Ekantik talk 04:39, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment I am strongly opposed to the creation of "Critics" categories, in accordance with previous CfD discussions on various "Fans of," "Supporters of," "Opposition to" and similar categories. For one, every public figure is going to have admirers and detractors, and will no doubt hold opinions of other public figures, leading to a proliferation of categories for likes and dislikes. But more importantly, there are multiple ways in which one may follow, respect, criticize, or detest someone, particularly in the case of religious and political figures. Nearly everyone who is a "follower" or "admirer" is going to be a "critic" or "opponent" at some level, and perhaps vice versa, rendering both categories essentially meaningless if they were not frequently OR to begin with (e.g. did Mel Carnahan actually hate John Ashcroft the person? And even if he did, does that mean the reverse was true?). There are better ways to capture the sentiments—categorize by, for instance, membership in some organization affiliated with the supporters or opponents. -choster 16:18, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Can anyone explain how this is different from Category:People who don't like Bill Gates? >Radiant< 13:07, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment This is exactly analogous to Category:Critics of Scientology and should be named accordingly. If there was a class of people who were mainly known for writing critical books about Bill Gates, "Critics of Bill Gates" would be a reasonable category too. 67.117.130.181 06:36, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • That sounds reasonable. Very well, rename to "critics of Saithy Say Baba" or however you spell that. Frankly I've never heard of him, but consistency is good. >Radiant< 10:30, 28 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'm all for consistency on Wikipedia and am happy with the category being renamed, but I just took a look at Critics of Scientology and I noticed that there's a reasonable number of Wiki-people articles to fill that category. The same is not true for the SSB issue, there are only about four or five. Perhaps creating a category for just five people is going a bit too far? Ekantik talk 05:22, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
    • I think it was created as a complement to the "followers" category (six entries). In that role even just one entry would make it worthwhile. Combined the pro and con categories have eleven entries. -Will Beback · † · 06:57, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename, both categories, to "critics of Sathya Sai Baba" and "followers of Sathya Sai Baba". -Will Beback · † · 06:57, 30 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Occitan personnalities

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The result of the debate was no consensus. Timrollpickering 02:58, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Moved from Speedy Timrollpickering 14:58, 25 December 2006 (UTC) [reply]

Oppose Should be Category:Occitan people. I would also note that the inclusion of the by place categories appears to be Occitan-centric POV. Osomec 04:04, 24 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Comments. First, would it not be courteous to inform the proposer when a speedy-renaming proposal is moved here (and alter the notice on the Category page)? Secondly, my speedy rename was based upon spelling (and thus in keeping with speedy-renaming rules); I can't see any sign of a request to delete this category, so am unclear why it was moved here. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 00:46, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Lists of notable persons by astrological sign

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The result of the debate was delete. Timrollpickering 02:47, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, and propose permanent ban on all people by astrological sign categories. -- ProveIt (talk) 14:25, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:The Simpsons guest stars

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The result of the debate was delete. Timrollpickering 02:45, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:The Simpsons guest stars (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Delete, This category, or ones very similar to it have been deleted before. The link between the show and the artists are many times tenuous at best. They may have only been "in the studio" for a couple hours and this has very little to do with their overall career or who they are as people. It's categorycruft. Dismas|(talk) 13:34, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Brands

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The result of the debate was rename. Timrollpickering 02:55, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

"Fooian brands" sounds so much less clunky and more natural than Brands of Foo, no? For the record, there are currently eight "Brands of Foo," (excluding one which I've tagged with {{db|catempty}}) one "Fooian brandnames," and six "Fooian brands." See also Category:Brands by country. Picaroon 05:12, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Clockwise spinners

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The result of the debate was delete. Timrollpickering 02:44, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Clockwise spinners (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Delete. Category is based on obscure figure-skating trivia. If we need this category, should we also classify the other 90% of skaters into another category for counterclockwise spinners? If it's relevant that a skater was a reverse jumper/spinner, can't we just note that fact in the article for the skater? Dr.frog 04:39, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:Albums named for colours

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The result of the debate was delete. Timrollpickering 02:42, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Albums named for colours (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Delete, A list of albums named for colors is only marginally interesting, and interesting is not a criterion for inclusion at Wikipedia. Also, it's not clear whether the category is for albums with official names that are colors, or albums that are referred to by their color, or if the color should be the only word in the title. I'm not sure if we narrowed it down far enough, that the category would be meaningful. Freekee 04:02, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

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Category:LGBT people who committed suicide

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The result of the debate was delete. Timrollpickering 02:40, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:LGBT people who committed suicide (edit | talk | history | links | watch | logs)

Delete, Unuseful, too narrow and unnecessary. AshadeofgreyTalk 03:16, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

One should note that the sub-categories here are occupations except "LGBT people"--AshadeofgreyTalk 22:40, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Most of those should probably be deleted too then. The question here is, "could you write an article about it?" Is there something particular about LGBT suicides that makes them especially notable? No, nor Category:Chefs who committed suicide. It's category cruft. Furthermore, there are POV problems with this category. In general, the fact that someone committed suicide is not a defining characteristic of that person. It is like having a category for people who died from kidney failure. It's non-defining, so we shouldn't have a category for it. To have such a category is to push the POV that their suicide totally changed the rest of their life previous, and it gives undue weight to their manner of death. Specifically for LGBT suicides, the category pushes the POV that LGBT people are prone to suicide, or should commit suicide, or that being LGBT in and of itself causes suicide. The category suggests a correlation between these factors, and it gives undue weight to the crossover of these topics. Everyone in this category can be safely upmerged to Category:Suicides if suicide is so important. But it's POV to keep a category that pushes an implicit correlation. — coelacan talk — 14:05, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Considering the research on LGBT suicide risks, yes, an article on LGBT suicides could definitely be written and probably should be, since the research is notable, verifiable and controversial. It is not POV pushing to have a category for people who are according to scientific research more likely to commit or attempt suicide and who have indeed committed suicide. As far as not wanting to have categories based on kidney failure or other causes of death, if you want to get rid of those you have a lot of work ahead of you. And the threshold for a category is not "defining characteristic." If it were then 90% of the categories here would be 86ed. Otto4711 14:30, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
In that case, there should also be catergories per gender as males are more likely to commit suicide.--AshadeofgreyTalk 19:36, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Arguing against the inclusion of one category by saying there should be more categories doesn't really make a lot of sense. Categories like articles stand or fall on their own merits and the existence or non-existence of one has no bearing on whether another should exist. Otto4711 19:39, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I'm not arguing for more categories, I don't think that this category is needed. Maybe a list (thought it will be very short because of the narrowness of the category).--AshadeofgreyTalk 19:46, 25 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Actually, yes, the threshold for a category is "defining characteristics". See Wikipedia:Overcategorization#Non-defining or trivial characteristic. This may indeed mean that even a majority of the categories on Wikipedia should be deleted, and that's what "Categories for Deletion" is for, believe it or not. So we'll keep putting them up on the chopping block, and the fact that we're not finished yet is all the more reason to keep moving. We might as well start with this category, as it's overcategorization if I've ever seen it. — coelacan talk — 00:34, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Well, as I said, if that standard were actually adhered to then about 90% of the categories here would be toast. But from the description at the other end of your link: " If you could easily leave something out of a biography, it is not a defining characteristic." Someone's homosexuality is not easily left out of their biography, at least not any more, and that someone committed suicide is also not easily left out of their biography. So no problem with this cat even under that standard. Otto4711 01:35, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Also I note that you linked to a guideline and not a policy. Otto4711 01:36, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

"A guideline is any page that is: (1) actionable and (2) authorized by consensus." A guideline is what you usually should do. A policy is what you had really darned well better do except in very rare cases. Obviously this guideline doesn't need to be a policy, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't follow it. "Oh it's just a guideline" is not equivalent to "just ignore it." Now, I am not a deletionist, and if this category didn't have POV problems I wouldn't be fighting it. But even if you could write an article on a statistical correlation, it would still be POV pushing to tag someone's article with this category, which implies causation. The category means "okay we have a tendency here, and Person X is an example of this tendency." That might not be true. Is Alan Turing a strong example of correlation? Maybe so. Is Virginia Woolf? Probably not. And yet here they both are in this category. "Someone's homosexuality is not easily left out of their biography, at least not any more, and that someone committed suicide is also not easily left out of their biography." Agreed, but a crossover category of their sexuality and their suicide is a tentative correlation that probably should be left out of their biography. It's not POV to write an article on correlation studies. But it is usually POV to pin this correlation on any particular person, and even moreso to do it with a cateogory, which cannot have qualifiers or footnotes or useful detail. You are a good editor, Otto, but I think in this particular case, you are wrong. — coelacan talk — 16:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
  • Clearly I'm on the losing side of this discussion (which doesn't mean I ain't going down swinging). But I think your opposition to the category rests in large part on your own POV about the category. The category is a simple collection of people who 1) were LGBT and 2) killed themselves. The only one claiming that the existence of the category implies correlation is you. You are drawing an inference, which makes the POV problem yours, not the category's. Otto4711 17:33, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
I dunno, you might be right about whatever's going on in my subconscious, but if so I assure you I'm not going to be the only reader who sees it that way. I want to point out that I am certain that User:Yonmei created the category in good faith. I am afraid that the POV is completely inadvertent. Do you see any merit to my argument that it can be NPOV to create the article on the subject of LGBT suicide and yet POV to attach the category to particular people? — coelacan talk — 23:34, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Honestly, no, I don't see any merit to it. And even assuming arguendo that a particuar editor adds a particular person because of some ax the editor wants to grind, so what? As long as the category is legitimate and the person being added to the category fits the criteria for inclusion, the reason someone chose to include an otherwise proper entry is irrelevant to me. Now, if the category were something like "People who were hounded to commit suicide because of societal hatred of homosexuality" then yes, that would be impermissibly POV. But the cat under discussion is based entirely on verifiable and notable facts. I don't find that the category makes any correlation or implication of correlation any more than the category for mathematicians or socialites or religious people who snuffed themselves draws or implies that correlation. Otto4711 04:37, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No implication of correlation? But weren't you the one who called it "a category for people who are according to scientific research more likely to commit or attempt suicide and who have indeed committed suicide"? Isn't that the very definition of correlation? — coelacan talk — 04:54, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
No, it's the very definition of categorizing an intersection of two notable facts. Otto4711 15:13, 27 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
Glad to see someone else recognizes the inherent problem in the overcategorization. — coelacan talk — 16:25, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]
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Category:Monolingual writing systems

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The result of the debate was delete. Timrollpickering 02:37, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Monolingual writing systems to Category:Unilingual writing systems
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Category:Megacorp

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The result of the debate was rename. Timrollpickering 02:34, 1 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Category:Megacorp to Category:Megacorps
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