Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ziad Sakr

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. ✗plicit 02:37, 26 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Ziad Sakr[edit]

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Ziad Sakr (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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Page was turned down two times in page review and then put to mainspace anyways by the article's creator. Ziad as a squash player has no significant coverage specific to them; beside passing mentions in other articles. They are currently ranked 182 by the PSA (squash tour), which is also not a notable ranking. Their current rankings mean they are limited in the tournaments they may enter. On the PSA website on Ziad Sakr's which lists news and video specific to the player no listings are specific to Ziad Sakr. On the Wiki page there listed notable win in 2012 is the British Open which was for the U-13 category. A junior tournament win of that caliber while impressive is not enough to meet notability requirements. KeepItGoingForward (talk) 01:17, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. KeepItGoingForward (talk) 01:17, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    I am also a concerned about the possibility that this page was written for WP:PROMOTIONAL purposes and that we have a strong WP:COI with this being the users only created article and them mentioning they have "interviewed" Ziad Sakr on my Talk Page, so therefore everything on the page is correct. No reference is given to this interview on Ziad Sakr's page. KeepItGoingForward (talk) 02:20, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
    The comment on the talk page after the article creation of, "Hey, what steps need to be taken here for the page to be indexed?" makes me also believe this article may have been created for promotional purposes. KeepItGoingForward (talk) 02:57, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]


Keep -Thank you for your comments; I appreciate the time you are taking to address them. Let's begin by addressing your concerns. The British Junior Open stands as one of the biggest and most prestigious tournaments in squash juniors' careers. Winning it is akin to securing a world championship. Moreover, this individual has clinched multiple significant international titles, including the Arabian Championship three times with the Egyptian national team and the 17th national championship for Trinity College. Since squash lacks a standardized league, the College Squash National Championship holds immense importance. For aspiring professional squash players, winning it is a pivotal goal, attracting sponsors and providing an advantage for promoters to grant access to wild cards and satellite tournaments in the professional circuit, a crucial step in starting a professional career.

Regarding the second point, Ziad Sakr moved from 800 to 182 in the rankings within a year. I respectfully disagree with your assertion that this is not notable. Achieving such a feat—climbing over 500 places in under 12 months at the beginning of a professional squash career—is a commendable and significant accomplishment. Ziad now qualifies to compete in major tournaments, and within the squash community, he is well-known. After conducting an interview with him, I am convinced he deserves to have a Wikipedia page so more people can learn about his achievements.

This has nothing to do with promotion, as you said. I am trying to give him the recognition he deserves. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Namexre (talk • contribs) 02:33, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Can you find citations for showing specific in depth coverage of Ziad Sakr to meet the WP:Notability_(sports) standards such as for the tournaments you mentioned?
Trinity College's domination of the national title for two decades is a good example where significant converge exists for an article. While being apart of a team that wins the championship is impressive there is not significant coverage specific to Ziad. As an example for a college player (and pro) that met significant coverage is Youssef Ibrahim. He played for Princeton (and the PSA) and received significant coverage while still playing for Princeton and therefore meets the requirements for a page.
Do you have a link to the interview you conducted of Ziad?
Ziad actually is not qualified at his rank of 182 to enter major tournaments. Are you familiar with the PSA tournament requirements? KeepItGoingForward (talk) 02:51, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - Thank you for responding. I already provided articles, link to the interview above and citations for every tournament, including the national championship title and All-American title. from the source you shared WP:Notability_(sports). It says the following about individual seasons below:
  • A national championship season at the top collegiate level is generally notable.
  • A national championship season at a lower collegiate level might be notable
The article provides coverage and citations for the college national championship in 2018 and the All-American title, which meet some of the criteria in the link you mentioned. From my point of view, is well sourced for every achievement, but I am not sure how much important coverage you are suggesting. In fact, it is providing more coverage and citations for the person you mentioned.
I understand your point, and for sure, Youssef's has significant PSA coverage. I can't disagree on that. but I am also not fully on the same page, if you don't mind. according to Wikepdia Notability, and the link you sent Ziad has his own coverage and pages and is more notable from my point of view than this person, for instance, Matías Knudsen. Regarding Ziad's own articles, please find this link here [5] and many more that I am mentioning. The PSA itself made the title of an article about his return after 7 years on tour here [6]. and many more which is cited in the article.
Namexre (talk) 03:14, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
As already stated to your earlier response on my take page, "Those are notability of the individual seasons being notable and having their own page. Notability is not inherited to the the individuals on the team for a noatable season."
Your first reference from Trinty College's own article to me is hard to make a case for significant coverage as it is written by the College themself for their own promotion. If the article was from an independent news site, etc. then it would meet the significant coverage threshold.
Your second link only has a passing mention of Ziad with two lines, "The 23-year-old last feature on the PSA Tour in 2016, when he played in the Arab Federation Open. Following an extended break away, including a four-year stint at Trinity College in the United States, Sakr returned to the Tour in Santa Fe this week." KeepItGoingForward (talk) 03:22, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep -You haven't gotten back to me in regards to the page I mentioned for Matias Knudsen above. Respectfully, I feel there is inconsistency here in terms of what you consider notable and not. As you mentioned on your page, Matias is higher in ranking than Ziad #119 vs #182. But in reality, as I mentioned, being ranked #119 vs #182 is not a big difference at all. So your case here kindly, is not about notability and coverage anymore; it is about ranking ? I am just a bit confused and trying to understand the facts you are proposing. Not coming hard on anyone specifically, our goal is to give equal recognition to the athletes who deserve it, but as you know, creating a page takes a lot of time and I feel you came very hard on the page I created by directly asking for it to be deleted while others are already approved as Matias and similar pages don't have the same coverage and citation as this page for Ziad.Namexre (talk) 03:25, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I also disagree with the fact that the article was written by the college for their own promotion. The college will not pick anyone to provide such coverage. They pick their elite athletes to do so. So respectfully, I disagree here with you. Because If this is the case, I could say the same thing about almost half of wikipedia athletes Namexre (talk) 03:27, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Also, KeepItGoingForward please explain to me your reasoning here I saw you recently edit a page Vikram Malhotrathat has zero citations, and you didn't list it for deletion as you did for this page. You are differentiating between article pages, which makes me question a lot of things here. Also, can you explain to me why this page was approved? Low Wee Nee ? it has no citations; she went to Trinity College and also won the national championship, but with fewer achievements. She didn't make it to major international tournaments such as the British Junior Open and the Arab Championship, as did Ziad. Again, I am trying to understand your reasoning behind the word "notability.". because every citation I made for this article, you referred to it as "promotional," which is very far from it Namexre (talk) 05:53, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@KeepItGoingForwardYou are violating Wikepdia rules Wikipedia:Don't restore removed commentsby constantly restoring the comments on the Ziad Sakr page while the editor keeps removing it. This is vandalism, and I feel you are trying to destroy the page without any reasoning. Namexre (talk) 17:45, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@CAPTAIN RAJU@WcquidditchPlease help here. Thanks Namexre (talk) 17:56, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You are talking about the talk page? Restoring the history and the wikiproject headers? KeepItGoingForward (talk) 20:22, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Just as a point of note, I have not restored any comments on your talk page as per the policy on WP:Don't restore removed comments. I have posted notices on it though.
I am sorry to hear that you feel that the AfD process is happening without reason. Maybe let's wait for some other editors to weigh in on the process for a fresh perspective for both of us? KeepItGoingForward (talk) 20:28, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@KeepItGoingForwardRespectfully, you did restore comments on the Ziad Sakr talk article, as I mentioned in my comments above, and you can easily check the history of edits. And you did that over 2 times. The last restoration was made by you at 06:52 on January 12, 2024 Namexre (talk) 20:48, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You never got back to me regarding your reasoning for editing/creating the pages I mentioned above, which have no citations but were approved. I would like to hear your reasoning behind differentiating between pages and why you are coming down hard on this particular page. Namexre (talk) 20:53, 12 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I would also like to note that the British junior open title is notable, and as mentioned on their official website and Wikepeida page, The British Junior Open squash championship is considered the second most prestigious junior open squash championship after the World Junior Squash Championships. It is one of the five Tier 2 events in the WSF World Junior Squash Circuit. So to get to your point,@KeepItGoingForward winning such a title is prestigious and considered notable, which makes this person, Ziad Sakr, a notable achievement. This is one of many achievements that are mentioned on his page. Namexre (talk) 01:49, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
and here it is as well on the England squash official website: https://www.englandsquash.com/competitions/junior/major-competitions Namexre (talk) 01:51, 15 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It is a serious accomplishment when he won the under 13 division; however, it does not make it Ziad notable for a wiki article, as there is no significant coverage attached to Ziad winning the tournament. To add, basically all the links in the Ziad article at the moment are about the Trinity Squash team as a whole and not Ziad specifically or have issues as discussed above. If you can find multiple significant coverage specific to Ziad then the article can be kept otherwise notability is in question. KeepItGoingForward (talk) 22:50, 16 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
@KeepItGoingForwardThere are already plenty of articles that talk about Ziad that are referenced and cited. I guess that brings you back to the point you have never answered. Your consideration of notability is different from one page to another. Consider these pages, which are also in squash space. They lack much more references and citations. In fact, you edited couple of them before and one or two of these page has zero articles or references. I am looking forward to hearing your honest opinion in regards of why you are working so hard to delete this particular page which meets all notability criteria and why you are leaving others that are not. You are in particular focusing on Egyptian players, which I noticed from your previous edits.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matías_Knudsen why he is approved ?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vikram_Malhotra - why is this page approved
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low_Wee_Nee - it has no citations; she went to Trinity College and also won the national championship, but with fewer achievements than Ziad
Kush Kumar - no achievements whatsoever and this page stating he won "9 times junior national champion" ???? that is absolutely not true, no reference supporting this and how this came through and got approved.
Thoboki Mohohlo - no citations, no achievements
I need your honest opinion because you keep running away from answering these questions. Ziad's page is well cited, notable achievements, supporting articles. So really not sure how's your arguments is valid. The pages above, you edited them before Namexre (talk) 03:49, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
None of the five pages you quoted have any edits from me.
I believe I was already clear above at this point. I will leave it to others to decide. The basic criteria is, "A person is presumed to be notable if they have been the subject of significant coverage, that is, multiple published non-trivial secondary sources which are reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject." as per WP:Notability_(sports) A news release by the Trinity College the College he plays for and is likely funding him through a scholarship, is not a secondary source or independent of the subject. When one looks at the citations there are none that are all independent, secondary, and non-trivial in their focus on Ziad Sakr. KeepItGoingForward (talk) 05:49, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
You still run away from answering my question. That is not answering why the other pages are not subject to deletion, given they have ZERO achievements or articles talking about them. @KeepItGoingForward You actually edited Vikram malhotra's page. You can simply go to the page history, and you can see it. The last edit you made was 6 days ago. It is that simple. Again, I kept saying it multiple times Ziad Sakr citations are not just scholarship coverage. There are 21 citations and an interview that talks about him. You are simply targeting the page; it is very obvious you don't want to answer my questions or even admit you edited the page. Simply check the history for the page I mentioned. I will appreciate if our conversation can have full transparency here Namexre (talk) 06:14, 17 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
I would appreciate if you would assume good faith and not do personal attacks. You are right I did edit Vikram Malhotra page to add an Unreferenced tag which adds to the top of the page, "This article does not cite any sources. Please help improve this article by adding citations to reliable sources. Unsourced material may be challenged and removed." I was pointing out an issue with the article. At the moment Vikram Malhotra's page does not show notability and if you believe that is still true after a search you can start a process for deleting the page. KeepItGoingForward (talk) 22:01, 18 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting we really need to hear from more than 2 editors on this situation. Just a reminder that each edito can cast a single bolded "vote" so please do not post votes repeatedly. I might come back and hat some of these tangent discussions. I think they would discourage editors from joining in the conversation.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 03:39, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete. I looked at the sources. KeepItGoingForward's assessment is correct, they do not meet WP:GNG or WP:NATHLETE. Most are routine match coverage that only mention Sakr in passing or statistics. The exceptions are [1] which is not independent, and [2], which, while a little bit more than a passing mention, is still routine sports coverage and not enough to meet our notability guidelines. WP:TOOSOON perhaps. Jfire (talk) 04:55, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: No coverage found for this person; sourcing now in the article is the college's website or various other sports sites, none of which are RS or non-primary. Low ranked athletes rarely get coverage and there are no news articles about this person. Oaktree b (talk) 12:53, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Lacks WP:SIGCOV and is not notable in their sport. As noted by others only passing mentions in most sources that matter. TarnishedPathtalk 14:17, 19 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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