Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Zamanfou

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result of the debate was KEEP Babajobu 08:14, 17 January 2006 (UTC)

Zamanfou

Hoax? This seems to be a joke. No sources. User:Zoe|^(talk) 03:32, 11 January 2006 (UTC) DELETE. Simply, this does not exist in any othe encyclopaedia. It would possibly be an entry in a slang dictionary, or a funny websites list. Not wikipedia.

• • Comment: why you won't find it in encyclopedias is explained below. Zamanfou is an attitude and lifestyle, not an organised movement. Wikipedia has other topics not found in encyclopedias. Pictureuploader 13:53, 15 January 2006 (UTC)
• DELETE. Could be acceptable as a lexicographical entry (an entry in a Greek slang dictionary), but not as an encyclopedia lemma. The social phenomenon it describes is neither unique to Greece, nor unanimously bound with the title word. Unless somebody provides links or references to some widely respected resources treating the alleged social phenomenon as a unique case for which a special term is required (and thus establishing a strong bind with the title-word), unless this happens, the entry should be deleted. As said, it would be perfectly OK to have a related lemma treating Greek slang expressions, marked and labeled as such. Modern Greek has an intricate system of profane verbal expressions and signs, and it would be great if someone were to document it and, if possible, link it to the formative social phenomena. But the "Zamanfou" article should be deleted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.1.62.220 (talk • contribs)

• No reputable references (all Google searches point back to Wikipedia), so I suggest speedy deletion. It sounds like someone had a lot of free time on his/her hands and was spouted out a lot of unfounded nonsense. Fabricationary 04:19, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
• Delete if there is not an equivalent, legitimate article on the same topic in the Greek 'pedia. pfctdayelise 04:34, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

• STRONG KEEP It's not a hoax folks, it's a valid social phenomenon in Greece. and you won't find any resources unless you search using GREEK LETTERS AND WORDS cuz we all speak Greek over here dotchaknow? For example search for "Ωχαδερφισμός" <-- search for that. And since when does the Greek wikipedia, a wikipedia with less than 10K articles, and in which you'll find mostly articles of historic value, validate the english wikipedia and vise versa? O_o So, if i put up a similar article in the Greek wikipedia, it will validate *THIS* one? Please. :P Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 17:34, 10 January 2006

• Keep but rewrite. The subject is not a hoax. Maybe funny to some but it is an existing phenomenon in modern day Greece. -- Michalis Famelis 07:22, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
• Comment The talk page leads me to think it is not a hoax, but it may be very inaccurate, non-NPOV, needing cleanup, link to Greek Wikipedia. —Quarl ^(talk) 2006-01-11 07:59Z
  • Comment Well, find me another Greek to show me just where I'm wrong :P Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 08:38, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep, but please rewrite with citation. And an article in Greek in the Greek Wikipedia would probably help a lot, because there would be more people there to feed back and improve it. -- Jmabel | Talk 08:51, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

I'm reading Nikos Dimou and Demosthenis Kurtovic as fast as I can :P Damn it Jim, I'm a programmer, not a Literature Major! ;) Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 10:30, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

• Keep and rewrite, as per Michalis Famelis and Jmabel above. Lukas 09:00, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep The article is definately not a Hoax, ask any Greek and you will find out that it is totally correct
• Delete Uses foul Greek language. There is no phenomenon of the kind but terminology and the gestures mentioned can be found in the streets. It is like elaborating in detail on gestures and idiotic neologisms. Entry regarding the army is completely irrelevant with the subject, term "loufa" as well. The lazy idiots described in the article are always unable to respond correctly to disciplined situations in life, like in the army, in a decent job, etc. It is a silly article, unworthy of Wikipedia. It cannot be rewritten. How deep can you elaborate on laziness and idiocy in non-medical terms? --Spryom 10:46, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
• Comment I do not have a position an opinion on whether it should be deleted or not. However, being greek, a couple of points. It is vulgar. A lot more than anyone might consider even remotely necessary. It is badly written. It generalizes a lot, being at points inconsistent. However, there is indeed such a culture in Greece, although informal. Even formally, many have referred to relevant aspects as characteristic of the Greek people. Perhaps it would be best to scrap and rewrite under "Ωχαδερφισμός" or something. I wonder, though, how one would write that using proper naming conventions. --Cangelis 11:01, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
• STRONG KEEP it's the quintessence of modern Greek society and psyche, although the article should reduce it's 'manual of behaviour for Zemamfoutists' look and it needs to make clear that Zamanfou is an abstract phenomenon; not an official or organised movement with dedicated followers, as sometimes non-Greeks would wrongly understand. That's why you cant' find it on Google and find bibliogaphy and references. That doesn't mean that it's unexistant, fake, nonsense or irrelevant Pictureuploader 12:14, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

• NO, this is NOT a hoax. The phenomenon exists. All the article describes, including the hand gestures and foul language do happen. The terms are broadly used in everyday life. Even, I use them. As a Greek male who lived in Greece through the 80s as well as presently and served in the army, I cannot describe how close this struck to my experience and how relevant it is to my life.

Loufa could be seen as an extension of Zamanfou, even though it is an related army term. There are even Greek movies about loufa. The movies are called no surprizing called "Λούφα και Παραλαγή" and "Λούφα και Παραλαγή 2" (the latter one is by Nikos Perakis).

Comment BOTH movies were direted by Nikos Perakis Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 12:17, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

The article does use foul language but only as it is necessary to talk about the phenomena. Foul language is part of the specific sub-culture. I would suggest not to remove it because it would alter the accuracy of the content. In the end, such is life and one cannot and may be should not clean it up!

The books can be found at: [1] and [2]

(Unsigned comment by User:212.205.97.6)

Please, please and please keep this article. Zamanfou is a part of being Greek. This is a part of my life!!! Nikolas Athens, Greece 11/01/2006

• Keep and Cleanup, Verify. If All your base are belong to us deserves an extensive Wikipedia article, then so does this. Foul language, if it is overwhelming the article, can be translated periphrastically to avoid it becoming the main attraction. Actually, some of it is untranslated in the present article: I believe σταρχιδιασμός means something like "on-my-ballsism," but that isn't mentioned. And since there are no official Greek government statistics on the demographic distribution of zamanfou attitudes, we need to cite more of whatever evidence we do have for its prevalence among different age groups. What arguments do Dimou et al. make in the books? It has some issues but it is definitely worth keeping.--Jpbrenna 12:49, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
• Keep - I'm not even understanding some of these delete votes. "Delete because it uses foul Greek language"? WTF?! Cyde Weys _vote^talk 14:34, 11 January 2006 (UTC)
• This is one of the great pages in the Wikipedia, despite its being rather coarse. They should be congratulated for including it! Definitely a keeper. Anyone who has been in Athens for 5 minutes can attest as to the existence or not of Zamanfu! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.80.49.131 (talk • contribs)
• KEEP IT!!! Its humoristic, very very real and describes modern Greece exactly! These expressions are used all the time by Greeks and thy are not vulgar! An encyclopedia should not be repressed by pseudo-morality shocks! This article speaks the truth, and I being greek recognised it instantly. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.202.1.115 (talk • contribs)
• Keep and Cleanup, Verify. User:Romanista

Comment: What brought this article to my attention was an email to the Help Desk mailing list from a Greek national who claimed it's nonsense. We need some references, people. This is unsourced and all lookups on the net go to Wikipedia mirrors. User:Zoe|^(talk) 16:19, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Reply to Comment: Zoe, Greek society, currently, really hates the idea of their dirty laundry getting public. It's not something Greeks are proud of. So, look for alterial motives when a Greek national asks you to "delete an article that's utter nonsence". Ask them "why is nonsense?", first. About the references: They are out there, definately. Gimmie some time, and i'll compile a list. In the meantime, I got to make some Pentiums at work compile some bytes for me, so, cut me some slack. ;) I'm trading my hours for a handful of dimes...

More to the point: Watch the article I got in line next about Greek Shadow Theater and Karagiozis. See what kind of reactions I'll elicit then. AFAIC, I can smell the foam comming out of the mouth from those so called Greek "nationals" (Read: nationalists), already.

I got 3 links to the books of 2 Greek authors. Would you like to list them by ISBN instead? There are many more in print, just not enough on the web, though "ωχ αδερφέ" does yield enough google hits to guarantee notability. Note please that the Zamanfu attitude is something like insider knowledge, i can't describe it in a better way: you got to be Greek in order to fully understand it. So, it's highly unlikely that you are going to find any references to this attitude that are not in Greek. Oh, here's a tip: Your average modern Greek assumes bad faith . Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 19:01, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

• I really fail to see how all this can be verified bibliographically, although I can agree with every single word of the article. Come to Greece and ask anyone you want about what Zamanfou is and not only everyone will tell you about it, but you will clearly see it on yourself; ask for books and articles about it and you will find none. I don't know if it's a weakness of Wikipedia: to erase a general truth simply for being unverifiable Pictureuploader 17:47, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

A comment on google hits: It is quite natural that searching for "Zamanfu" only yields 333 hits in Google. The term as used in the article name is a greeklish transliteration of the french language slang expression je m'en fou (420.000 google hits) or je m'en fous (217.000 hits). I think one could consider zamanfou a neologism, as there exists an otherwise slang ("argot") term to describe the state of being "en fous", je m'en foutisme (only 634 hits but with an entry in the "Dictionnaire d'argot"). From the above I would note that apart from cleanup and verification, there should also be a renaming as I see it to one of the following:

1. Je m'en foutisme (which would mean that the article would have to incorporate information on the french version of the mentality)
2. Ohaderfismos (which gets no google hits in english and merely 266 hits in greek (ωχαδερφισμός) but could(?) be accepted as a transliteration)
3. Oh Aderfe (Ωχ αδερφε) which gets merely 764 hits in english but a relative impressive number of hits, 14.900, in greek as "ωχ αδερφέ".

-- Michalis Famelis 17:56, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

• Keep. However sources would be nice. If it is as well known as people are saying it is, then surely there is a magazine artice at least written on it. Paul August ☎ 18:28, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

• Comment. Sources are easily verifiable, just not on the web. Greece has still to come out of the bronze age as far as available bandwidth is concearned and it's still in the dark as fast as internet b2b. So, there are 8-10 books, and plenty of newspaper articles in print available, but none really on the web. Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 19:01, 11 January 2006 (UTC)~

There is no requirement that sources have to be on the web, nor do they have to be in English (although both things make verifiability easier). Please add whatever reliable references you have, with complete bibliographic information. Thanks. Paul August ☎ 20:22, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Delete I’m sure that you find apathetic and socially irresponsible people in every country of the world. This article can only have meaning as satire or a joke. Taken literally as an attempt at sociological analysis it is plain stupid. The author takes a gesture, a few words, and a quite common human characteristic, found I’m sure in people of all races and colors and creates a “social phenomenon”. He gives it a start point in time (that has developed since the late 1980s), a place of origin (It first began in Athens), and a background that even involves the Greek civil war.

The paragraph in which he offers an extremely detailed description of the movement of the hands towards the genitals organised in 5 different categories is proof enough as far as I’m concerned that the author just wanted to spend a fun evening in front of his keyboard.

This pseudo-sociological text could be amusing in a blog but it can be extremely misleading as an article in an encyclopedia. Of course the word exists. Of course the gestures exist , but you can not make a social phenomenon out of them. It is nothing more than the author’s personal, completely unscientific opinion probably inspired by certain satirical pieces (I see links to Nikos Dimou)

It is definetely not suitable for Wikipedia. Dimitris

Comment: Weather or not the phenomenon exists is not something that per se dictates deletion or otherwise. If sufficient sources can be presented that there exists a trend that holds it as a social phenomenon then there is a place for it in WP. The article could be like

"Zamanfou, is a belief held among some Greeks <with citations> that.... They trace it back to....." etc etc.

WP has an article on Flat earth theory. Flat earth does not exist, but there exist people who think it does. -- Michalis Famelis 20:09, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

Comment: I would like Dimitris to show us how Nikos Dimou is satirical in his writings. I think Nikos Dimou, a modern Greek author is dead on point on his observations about the modern Greek society. Project2501a | ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 21:16, 11 January 2006 (UTC)

KEEP IT The references are real and it is modern Greek... People reaching their 60 years may not even be aware of these "words" but that does not mean that they do not exist out there. Maybe it is exagerating somehow but they are people that fall exactly in this category

OK, I"m going to withdraw my nomination. User:Zoe|^(talk) 04:58, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

This should not be deleted! - people who say delete have no experience of modern Greek Culture.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.229.62.189 (talk • contribs)

KEEP IT-Definately an accurate and valid greek social phenomenon, not even part of a sub-culture but rather a vital part of the modern greek mentality, except, of course, for those who think that the entry came out of the blue (and who probably live in another country, not to mention another planet). Some parts are written in a caustic manner, but do not give false information, on the contrary, they are precise and revealing in an imaginative and non-conservative way. As for the hand gestures, well, if they are not part of a culture (as the greek or the italian), then what is? -- 11:58, 12 January 2006 (UTC)mxrwho — Preceding unsigned comment added by 143.233.187.84 (talk • contribs)

DELETE As far as I am concerned, it could be accepted as a lexical entry in a glossary but definitely not as an attempt to analyse a - so called - sociological phenomenon, especially in an encyclopedia. Absolutely misleading. It just doesn't have any scientific grounds whatsoever. Furthermore, the links to Nikos Dimou articles are just a collection of the author's opinions, definitely not a scientific approach. I don't even think that Nikos Dimou intended them to be considered scientific.

This is definitely not a culture-specific phenomenon. It's not bound to the Greek society. Maybe the gestures are. As an extralinguistic phenomenon, gestures are linked to language itself, and these gestures are definitely linked to the Greek language. But that's about it. It should not be associated with a sociological stance, well, at least not one attributed to a specific nation, anyway.

Eri — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.93.21.39 (talk • contribs)

COMMENT Eri, pray, do tell, show us antother culture on this plannet that does have a Zamanfu attitude about life. And if you are conserned about the scientificness of the whole thing, just be patient, i'm reading as fast as I can. Cut me some slack :P ΑΝΥΠΟΤΑΞΙΑ, ΑΠΑΛΛΑΓΗ, Ι-5 13:50, 12 January 2006 (UTC)

Comment Unrestrained generalization could be borderline racism. Note the following comments:

‘look for alterial motives when a Greek national asks you to delete an article’
‘your average modern Greek assumes bad faith’
‘Greek society, currently, really hates the idea of their dirty laundry getting public’
‘not even part of a sub-culture but rather a vital part of the modern Greek mentality’
‘it’s the quintessence of modern Greek society and psyche’
‘Anyone who has been in Athens for 5 minutes can attest as to the existence or not of Zamanfu’

Such sort of aphorisms, (most of them written by the same person who wrote the article), are simply biased in their ‘steamroller logic’. I was born in Athens and I’ve lived my entire life in Greece. I’m 28 years old now and I have never met a single human being that I would categorize as part of this ‘social phenomenon’. Have I lived in a bubble then? You know, as far as I’m concerned what really makes this article fall apart is the systematization that it leads to. Taking this word and that gesture and some example of mentality of indifference and combining them all to create an actual ‘sociological phenomenon’ a system of values, a pattern of behaviour, conscious and so specific. Well such a theory or movement or system simply does not exist

The author also gives specific information that even more enhances the view of this as an actual sociological phenomenon, official and probably studied by scientists. Note the following:

‘that has developed since the late 1980s’
‘main supporters of this phenomenon were generally between the ages of 16-25’
‘citizens that chose to prioritize their individual well being’
‘It is thought of as a form of insubordination against the state and the Greek status quo’
‘Due to Zamanfou, as of 2006 the cohesiveness of the Greek society has deteriorated to some extend’
‘this was also one cause of the less than optimal recovery of the Greek economy,
as a member of the European Union, during the eighties and the nineties’
‘Subscribers to this ideology use a characteristic phrase’
‘The Hellenic Armed Forces have developed a military version of Zamanfou, called Loufa’

I doubt the credibility of all of the above quotes. I suppose that in this context the hand gesture so eloquently described by the author is a definite way for the scientist to recognize the ‘Zanmafoutian’. It could be a sure way for members of the ‘movement’ to recognize each other as well. You know sort of like a secret handshake :)

The part about the military variation of the ‘phenomenon’ called ‘loufa’ is also nonsense. Loufa or the verb loufaro is slang and describes the international in my opinion tendency to slack off. It is not a word or a tendency that is specific to the Greek military forces.

It’s like me saying that there are people in America for example, who sometimes instead of working spend their time in the office surfing the internet or checking their personal email. Actually there are expressions in the English language such as ‘I don’t give a damn’, ‘I don’t give a shit’, “I don’t give a flying fuck” etc, all used to express indifference. The people who use such expressions and slack off at work are part of a specific sociological phenomenon. Add a few dates, a fancy name and a link to a ‘how to slack off at work and get away with it’ guide and I have my sociological Wikipedia article.

There is not such a thing as a sociological phenomenon called Zamanfou, developed in the late 1980’s, originally in Athens, from 16-25 year olds…. etc, etc. Just the personal, totally unscientific systematization of a number of words, phrases and international mentalities, all woven together by the author in a pseudo-scientific mess.

It might be funny, certainly puts a smile on your face, but it is just not true. Wikipedia is an encyclopedia. People come here for information. It should not include articles appearing to be scientific while providing completely personal views and ideas. Dimitris — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.1.248.248 (talk • contribs)

KEEP but refine. As a non-Greek who has lived and worked with Greeks for two decades, I can say that it is 100% true. The elaboration on hand gestures is ridiculous and should be deleted. Although I have never heard this social condition referred to as zamanfou, I have seen numerous comentaries on the phenomenon of Ωχαδερφισμός in the Greek press. If someone has the time, they could translate a few articles or post references to them. This is by no means a uniquely Greek phenomenon, but in Greece it does indeed have a unique expression bordering on a counterculture. As far as loufa goes, it does not really apply to the Greek military as a whole but only to the conscripts who serve a 12-month tour which is viewed as an unwanted interruption from their life. The truth of the matter is that the Greek military is largely a professional force with conscripts relegated to menial labor duties and other busy work that would drive most Americans mad. Tony — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.33.167.225 (talk • contribs)

KEEP!!! Having read the article on Zamanfou I must stress with a thick underline that the article must be kept. The term is no longer being used except by those of a certain age but the phenomenon is certainly here to stay with Greek everyday life unfortunate as it may be. My sincere thanks for those who posted it!!! My age allows me to know exactly when the phenomenon got started and how it evolved over the years. Thanks for the hospitality, www.phaedrus.gr — Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.1.10.97 (talk • contribs)

DELETE The article is full of factual inaccuracies, and the writing style is very poor. The subject is serious, yet the article is tongue-in-cheek. See the article on Chav for how a serious treatment could be. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 195.251.29.36 (talk • contribs)

• We can reassure you that it's NOT full of factual inaccuracies, and if it is, you can just go on and correct them. Pictureuploader 13:06, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

Keep. Better than one more article on a video game character (I know, pretty low standard, but don't take it as an insult). alteripse 18:59, 16 January 2006 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.