Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Willie Thornton (Canadian football)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. ‑Scottywong | [squeal] || 04:58, 6 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Willie Thornton (Canadian football)[edit]

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Orphaned since 2010, doesn't seem to have played any games for Edmonton or Hamilton, which would not meet WP:NGRIDIRON. A google search brings up a couple SportsNet articles about trades, but not enough to meet WP:GNG. Bkissin (talk) 22:37, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 23:16, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Florida-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 23:16, 27 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete, a player with no achievements and not even a competition in his sport (Canadian football) has to be remarkable and remembered in order to have an article. A couple of interviews would not be enough either. Geschichte (talk) 05:21, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete No evidence of notability. Didn't play pro ball....William, is the complaint department really on the roof? 18:31, 28 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep passes WP:NGRIDIRON, having played in a CFL game in 2010 per [1]. I have expanded and updated the article accordingly. Eagles 24/7 (C) 18:36, 29 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions. Eagles 24/7 (C) 17:31, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete We can delete players who pass an SNG (usually marginally, like Thornton: see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Steve Lacaze for an exceptionally recent example from the exciting world of rugby) but fail WP:GNG. All of the articles are exceptionally trivial, transactional, team-written, or combinations of those, and I can't find any other coverage of him. SportingFlyer T·C 18:31, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This began as a proposal to delete on grounds that the individual did not pass NGRIDIRON. The first two "delete" votes were made on that basis. Eagles247 has shown that contention to have been inaccurate. SportingFlyer now seeks to shift the deletion basis to a GNG failure. However, the newspapers that are likely to cover Thornton's career are, in order of likelihood, those from Commerce, TX (including Commerce Journal), Hamilton, ONT, Dallas, and Toronto -- none of which are readily available online. Given that the individual plainly passes the SNG, the presumption of notability should only be overcome upon a showing that searches have been made (and found wanting) in these sources. Cbl62 (talk) 19:59, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bkissin also noted it failed WP:GNG, so just meeting WP:GRIDIRON isn't enough. I've done a full search over two search engines and a Newspapers.com search for Canada, which only brings up mere blurbs or mentions like [2] and [3]. There's also a photo of him and a mention from the one game he played in where he dropped a catch. Otherwise it's all agate. I'd be fine with a redirect if there's a list of Hamilton players similar to the player we deleted exists. SportingFlyer T·C 20:24, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Passing NGRIDIRON creates a presumption of notability. Newspapers.com does not include newspapers from Commerce, Hamilton, Dallas, or Toronto. In order to rebut the presumption flowing from passing the SNG, something more is needed than on-line searches that exclude the relevant metropolitan areas. Cbl62 (talk) 20:33, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Willie Thornton" brought up no results in the Hamilton Spectator online news search, and their searchable archives go back to 2008. If you want to make the claim he's a notable college football player, go ahead, but a) he's not, b) I've done what I can to rebut the presumption, and c) across sports, we have a tradition of not keeping articles for players who marginally pass a sports SNG. SportingFlyer T·C 21:39, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"a tradition"? Huh? You cite a single obscure rugby AfD with minimal participation and where there was not even discussion of the significance of an SNG. That's hardly the stuff "a tradition" is made of. The actual tradition across hundreds of baseball and American football AfDs is to keep player bios that meet the one-pro-game SNG. The reality here is that you are advocating a drastic departure from "tradition". Cbl62 (talk) 21:59, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Geschichte did an excellent job with the nomination at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Nico Muñiz showing that one appearance and no WP:GNG means sportsperson articles typically end in deletion, which is now the case at rugby league as well. Different type of footy yes, but meeting a sports SNG + failing GNG means delete is the proper outcome. SportingFlyer T·C 00:00, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of song and dance here concerning other articles and other sports... but I don't dance.--Paul McDonald (talk) 23:36, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Passes WP:NGRIDIRON having played in the regular season in the CFL. Cbl62 (talk) 19:29, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep playing in the CFL does meet WP:NGRIDIRON, good catch!--Paul McDonald (talk) 20:09, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Meets NGRIDIRON. I was able to pull up some stuff from college, for example [4] [5] ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 21:03, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Match reports don't contribute towards notability, and the other is a press release. He does not appear to be a notable football player either as that looks to be a lower level of competition. SportingFlyer T·C 21:39, 30 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

WP:NGRIDIRON has long been supported by consensus, which means that published game statistics that show evidence of regular season play in the CFL are indeed enough to constitute notability. So when I read "Match reports don't contribute towards notability" my response is "yeah they do" because it proves passing the threshold established in WP:NGRIDIRON. --Paul McDonald (talk) 17:11, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, but all Wikipedia articles must meet WP:GNG. Whether he has passed WP:NGRIDIRON isn't relevant for my argument - he does, barely, and that's not contested. Passing a SNG doesn't guarantee that an article is warranted. It just creates a presumption that there's significant coverage, and with Thornton, who played during a time where coverage is easily available on the internet, and at an exceptionally small college, that doesn't appear to be the case yet. We frequently delete or redirect articles on athletes who barely pass a SNG if they fail GNG as I've shown above, and we do not typically count match reports as significant coverage. We can agree to disagree again and happy to check if there's any additional coverage that comes in. SportingFlyer T·C 17:23, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The general notability guideline is just that--a "guideline" and not policy. It is not the only path to notability.--Paul McDonald (talk) 21:18, 1 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Since he's apparently notable for meeting a subject specific guideline, may as well note WP:SNG states: These are considered shortcuts to meeting the general notability guideline. A topic is not required to meet both the general notability guideline and a subject-specific notability guideline to qualify for a standalone article. Note, however, that in cases where GNG has not been met and a subject's claim to meeting an SNG is weak or subjective, the article may still be deleted or merged: a presumption is neither a guarantee that sources can be found nor a mandate for a separate page. Good non-transactional sources still haven't been presented, even with additions to the article, and his SNG meet here is very weak. I really don't see how we can keep this. SportingFlyer T·C 00:54, 3 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. Meets WP:NGRIDIRON #1 as a player who appeared in a regular season game in the CFL, per all above. Ejgreen77 (talk) 07:30, 31 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep per WP:NGRIDIRON. --KartikeyaS (talk) 18:08, 5 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.