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Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/White phosphorus use in Iraq

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. T. Canens (talk) 05:13, 19 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

White phosphorus use in Iraq (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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I believe this does not conform to Wikipedia's policies on notability and neutral point of view and is giving undue weight to questionable propaganda pieces.

  • Other than one documentary (documentaries are generally not considered reliable sources) there are no sources or evidence that white phosphorus was used against civilians in Iraq. There are no conventions or international laws that ban its use against enemy militants as obscurant or incendiary weapon. Therefore, in accordance with Wikipedia's notability and NPOV guidelines, it seems to me that this article is giving undue weight to a questionable, invalid, and non-notable claim. Wikipedia is not a soapbox to spread rumors in order to support personal ideologies.
  • This article, to me, seems to be promoting a general pattern of bias. Pushing and making a big deal over unsubstantiated claims has no place in a serious encyclopedia. This article seems have a form of bias and subtil POV pushing.
  • Strangely, use of white phosphorus is implicitly questioned but insurgent tactics (e.g., child soldiers, attacking civilians, etc.) are not (at least not sufficiently). This has a whole article devoted to it even though the same things are covered in other places, which makes this "dead undue weight."

The single biggest problem with this is that there is no evidence for these allegations and no trustworthy sources either; this POV pushing babble should have no place in an encyclopedia. The very title implies that using WP in Iraq was wrong.

I'd encourage any reviewing editor to consider carefully the above points. Green547 (talk) 22:20, 3 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Iraq-related deletion discussions. — JJMC89(T·E·C) 02:44, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. — JJMC89(T·E·C) 02:44, 4 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Sammy1339: The title is definitely misleading, and, arguably, the content is also misleading. Wikipedia policy demands that we put due weight on reliable sources, not POV hand-waving. I don't think some documentary and what a few reporters said is reliable sources. "Some claimed." Yes, anybody can claim anything, but the actual convention is quite clear; WP may be used as an obsurant or incendiary weapon, and that is precisely what happened. "Specific instances." Sorry, but I see no specific instance mentioned in the article (or, frankly, elsewhere) that would actually violate international law. Wikipedia shouldn't be a platform to throw around unsubstantiated claims; that's why the notability guideline is here. Finally, if this article was really written with NPOV (not an essay), the "Use in Halabja" section would be equally puffed up with allegations and babbling, but of course it isn't because there is obvious bias here. Green547 (talk) 15:19, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Green547: If you're saying that the evidence that these actions actually constituted a chemical attack is questionable, then yes, I agree with you. Given that upwards of 40% of artillery shells fired are WP, and some of them will inevitably fall directly on the enemy or on civilians, it is basically impossible to support such a claim. However, the accusations themselves are notable due to the attention they received from media. --Sammy1339 (talk) 15:27, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Sammy1339: Yes, media, media. I see your point. News: media is actually very biased. It's verifiable that the media and other hand-wavers make these claims, but is it notable, considering what a whole lot of other reliable sources and knowledgeable people say (not to mention the ACTUAL conventions)? I'd still argue for deletion of this. If anything, a new article could be created under a NPOV title, which would actually give accurate information: "these are unsubstantiated allegations that lack support from the evidence and which do not have any real convention/international law basis." Moon landing conspiracy theories might get a lot of attention, but just take a look at the article describing that. Green547 (talk) 18:22, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Green547: The short answer is that media coverage makes it notable. NPOV is not a reason for deletion, and the solution is almost always to find reliably sourced refutations of notable dubious claims and add them to the article, not to omit the questionable claims from mention. --Sammy1339 (talk) 18:58, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
@Sammy1339: Then also take a look at my last bullet point in the original text. Besides that, I believe that this would need such a drastic rewrite that it'd be better just to delete and start over. The article in its present form is basically just POV babble and no real refutations or points are detailed. Green547 (talk) 19:19, 7 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 11:48, 11 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
Uh, no that's not what I've said. In summary, point # 2 is that this article seems to be doing subtil POV pushing and is biased (it matters not which POV it is). Point # 3 is that we're paying too much attention and weight on these (obviously unsubstantiated) claims, while not making that big a deal about REAL war crimes (well documented, with reliable sources, and supported by evidence). Thus this coverage is unbalanced. Coupled with the fact that this is already written down in other articles, this makes Use of WP in Iraq "dead undue weight" and obvious POV babble. I've modified my points to avoid any misunderstandings. Green547 (talk) 16:48, 15 August 2015 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.