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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. Non admin close Happy Editing, Dustitalk to me 17:32, 27 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Washington International University[edit]

Washington International University (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

Yet another diploma mill non-traditional learning institution. Very few sources exist about this institution, and what sources do exist are not exactly complimentary. A couple of directory-style listings of sub-standard schools, a news story from a few years back, and not much else - and needless to say the subject institution vigorously asserts that it is a legitimate institution of learning, per OTRS ticket 2008022110018923. Overall, probably not worth the trouble. Guy (Help!) 23:11, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Addendum: Bear's shows two institutions by this name, Hawaii discusses another which may or may not be related; it's not easy to see whether the few sources we have are actually about the same place. Guy (Help!) 23:47, 21 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. The institution actually has attracted some attention. According to the New York Times (August 2, 1998, Section 4A; Page 17; Column 1; Education Life Supplement), it was originally called Washington University until the real Washington University sued. (That story does explicitly state that the Hawaii and Pennsylvania universities were the same.) The same episode was in the Philadelphia Inquirer of MARCH 31, 1998 (SF EDITION, Pg. A01). Since the standard is multiple independent sources, these and what is already in the article seem more than enough. (I don't think that 'not worth the trouble' is a deletion criterion.) Bucketsofg 00:09, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • But can you prove tat those sources refer to this subject? I think there are at least two and possibly up to four mills with this name, and I can't be sure which is which, especially since the OTRS complaint states that they have never operated in Philadelphia. Guy (Help!) 08:01, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Both the NYT and the Philadelphia Inquirer article seem pretty clear: they both say that it was incorporated in Hawaii and the British Virgin Islands. It also says that the 'school' operated in Bryn Mawr, not Philadelphia. Bucketsofg 17:23, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bryn Mawr is a Welsh name look you isn't it? (That doesn't work unless you say it with a Welsh accent, mind). Guy (Help!) 17:35, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Bryn Mawr College is a prestigious school with that very distinctive "Bryn Mawr" name. A bit like locating your school in Oxford or Cambridge or Princeton. Noroton (talk) 21:15, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong keep. It's not notable as a university, but it's plenty notable for the attention it has received as an alleged scam -- in the altercation with Washington University, in being closed down in Hawaii for deceptive marketing practices, and in becoming a source of controversy in a Canadian election due to a candidate's claiming a degree from this school. (Not to mention that an African head of state is a graduate.) I certainly hope that Wikipedia does not plan to delete every article about about scams whose perpetrators whine or make legal threats on OTRS. --Orlady (talk) 00:46, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per above and per WP:CORP with years and years of WP:RS coverage. Article sources seem okay and even higher quality ones available to back them up. • Gene93k (talk) 00:58, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

*I see reliable sources, recommend keep. NonvocalScream (talk) 02:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete - if our reliable source mainly discusses the fact that they were sued by Washington University, I'm not really sure what's notable about that. Folks get sued over trademark infringement every day. I truly don't see any reason to keep this particular article. - Philippe | Talk 02:17, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - multiple sources that meet WP:N. I would add that there is a good reason for having a page on unaccredited universities that are widely publicised in that we provide encyclopaedic information about the nature of the institution. TerriersFan (talk) 04:44, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per sufficient coverage in reliable sources. CJCurrie (talk) 05:26, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: See Guy's note above: how do we know that the sources are even talking about this university? The University denies that they even operated in Philadelphia. Let's not just look at the number of links, let's look at what they actually say, yes? - Philippe | Talk 13:49, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is that denial that they even operated in Philadelphia from the OTRS? (Those of us who can't see the OTRS allegations are not in a good position to help respond to those allegations. Would it be possible to summarize what they are saying? Are there other allegations that need to be refuted?) For what it's worth, the archive.org website history (see Talk:Washington International University) clearly indicates that the owners of this domain were located in two different Philadelphia suburbs at various times up until some time in the last year. --Orlady (talk) 17:52, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • keep this article is useful for people considering using the service of this "University" to learn from a neutral source what it is. --Walter (talk) 09:47, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete I'm not sure how this article meets our notability guidelines. NonvocalScream (talk) 13:15, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete I can confirm that on February 19, 2008, the lawyers for the school specifically deny that the school operates in Pennsylvania (not just Philadelphia) (For those with OTRS access, see 2008022110018923). Also, Being sued is not sufficient criteria for notability; neither is issuing diplomas of any sort. -- Avi (talk) 19:24, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • It likely is true that they are no longer operating in Pennsylvania. Their website does not actually say where they are now, but it gives a Delaware mailing address along with the BVI incorporation. The article does not say they are currently in Pennsylvania, but it does say The Oregon Office of Degree Authorization stated that [WIU is] operating illegally in Pennsylvania according to PA Department of Education. The source citation for that statement lists an access date of September 21, 2007, but the quoted text is what's currently on the ODA website. If WIU can convince ODA to change its website to say that they've moved to Delaware, Wikipedia could change the quotation. --Orlady (talk) 19:46, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Not that I want to log in for this, but I don't know what the lawyers for this school are claiming, but the Hawaii state page [1] says they were based in Pennsylvania. I believe that qualifies as a reliable source. The question of notability is another matter, but in the interest of avoiding censorship and coercion, I suggest it be tabled till this OTRS matter is resolved and that this discussion be closed. FrozenPurpleCube (talk) 19:37, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • [ec] The problem is that it is not easy to link one report of a bogus "university" with another - they deliberately obscure ownership and location data in order to prevent this and to evade the inevitable reports of fraudulent use of credentials. Even if this were a legitimate school, which is unlikely given the lack of accreditation and use of life experience credits, it would be hard to prove which of the one, two or more Washington International Universities it is. Guy (Help!) 19:48, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • It's not easy, but it's not impossible. Look at the archive.org history of the domain. (That's original research, so it's not directly a basis for the article, but it should give confidence that this is not a case of mistaken identity.) Also, would it help you to know that Yil Karademir, the man identified as the WIU owner by the Bears' Guide and in news reports about the 1998 name issue, is selling a book from a mailing address in King of Prussia, PA? --Orlady (talk) 19:55, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Aside: I've stayed in King of Prussia, PA. But no, since none of that is usable, I'm afraid. Guy (Help!) 21:18, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • We've established by now from two newspapers that the South Dakota WIU and the one that is/was in Bryn Mawr, PA is one owned by this Yil Karademir. Noroton (talk) 21:15, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Update (see article for cited links) This Washington International University was founded in Bryn Mawr, PA, and had mail drop/phone answering offices or services in Sioux City, South Dakota (all this according to the Argus Leader newspaper); and according to The Philadelphia Inquirer (confirmed with other sources) there was a similar mail drop/answering service in Hawaii; the application at the school's website, as noted in our article, states that WIU has a mailing address at 1521 Concord Pike, Wilmington, Delaware (bottom of page) and was founded in "B.V.I." (British Virgin Islands). There's another school with the same name but with a different website in Encino, California (we have a website for that which gives that location), and, apparently, a third school with Delaware/Kowloon, Hong Kong connections, which the Bears' Guide has a separate article for. I think that covers every single location. As to the legal stuff, it would be useful and highly entertaining to follow the link to the Bear Guide, "Washington International University / Pennsylvania, South Dakota" article. Highly entertaining. And the Bears' Guide didn't fold to the legal threats. And did I mention it's entertaining? Noroton (talk) 03:09, 25 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
It seems you are arguing there are more than one institution called Washington International University, and that somehow warrants deletion of an article?? If there's two organizations using the name, for whatever reason, even if they are unconnected, this does not preclude Wikipedia having an article on one, or both. If the WIU officials who have filed a complaint with OTRS wish the article to clarify that there is no connection between the one involved in the Hawaii issue, and themselves, that'd be fair enough, assuming that is indeed the truth. Of course, the burden of making that assertion is on them. And it seems there was some intention on developing a Washington International University in the Virginia Area. There are several Washington Post articles on it. Accordingly, I believe there does need to be some coverage at this location, and if there is some possibility of confusion, then a DAB page would be the solution, not deletion. FrozenPurpleCube (talk) 22:13, 22 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep This organization falls under WP:ORG whether it's a school or a business (and it's at least a business), and it seems to meet the notability requirements there. I've added information from the Sioux Falls local daily newspaper about what sort of an operation the school has in that town as of 2002 (it was a mail drop). Now that I see some of the discussion above, I might add to the article that the newspaper quoted Yil Karademir as the owner, so we can link the institution to that location (the article is behind the newsbank.com subscription wall). It seems to me that it's particularly important to identify and have articles on alleged diploma mills as long as the article identifies any possible confusion in names of separate institutions. Noroton (talk) 20:10, 24 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep- notable because there is plenty of coverage, even if it is a diploma mill. Rigby27 Talk 14:36, 26 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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