Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Vista Verde School

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. SpinningSpark 10:11, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Vista Verde School

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Non notable middle school. The closest thing to notability is they tore it down. Jacona (talk) 20:33, 6 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Comment - I am sure it takes less time to tear down a not notable school building than to delete its article here. :-) Now shall we have to find another article to merge and redirect this one, in case we succeed to convince everybody that a separate article is not necessary? --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 20:39, 6 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

a school district is known Irvine Unified School District, but the redirect was reverted though notability seems lacking, thus we find ourselves here.Jacona (talk) 21:04, 6 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as a major contributor to the article. The school has somewhat unusual characteristics (all-year, combined primary and middle, not a neighborhood school), a small but nontrivial history (the 2006 campus move, very misleadingly described as "they tore it down" by the nominator), and some level of distinction (Blue Ribbon School of Excellence), all of which are well-sourced to multiple newspaper articles (one of which is in a minor local paper but the rest are in a major regional paper). None of this encyclopedic information would be appropriate to merge into the parent article Irvine Unified School District which includes only the names of each school. On the face of it this would seem to be enough for WP:GNG, which requires only "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject". In attempting to delete this article out-of-process, the nominator invoked WP:SCHOOLOUTCOMES, but that refers back to the general notability guideline for organizations and adds "Most elementary (primary) and middle schools that don't source a clear claim to notability get merged or redirected in AfD." Note that "most" is very different from "all" and that (I believe) a clear claim for notability exists here, namely the Blue Ribbon School of Excellence. (The article on this distinction states that it has been won by only 5200 schools out of over 133000 eligible schools.) —David Eppstein (talk) 23:32, 6 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

David -- I'm not sure whether you watch the school AfDs, but as one who does I wonder if it might not be helpful for you to look at some old ones from the past year or two, to see just what the level of notability is that has generally been required at AfD for middle schools (the opposite happens with high schools, btw -- nearly all of those are kept, despite a paucity of refs). Here is a small slice of those AfDs. As you will see, a school that is in a group of ~~5,200~~ 7,000 schools is unlikely to be deemed a middle school deserving of a stand-alone article due to that accomplishment. And I'm not sure what of the other matters you point to are significant enough to bring it out of the Outcomes determination ... being all-year, combined primary and middle, not a neighborhood school, and a campus move each seem to me to be short of the notability looked for in middle schools at AfD. But perhaps I'm missing something. Epeefleche (talk) 16:38, 7 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

It's actually significantly more select than 5200 schools — it won three times, something only a small fraction of those 5200 have done, but I don't have sourcing to make it any more specific than that. And I'm not sure what looking at past school outcomes would accomplish. We have an extremely arbitrary division here where even the most bog-standard high school is considered notable (and where according to the same WP:ORG guideline a company with a couple dozen employees can be considered notable as long as it gets a little press) but even a multi-award-winning, top school in a county of three million people, repeatedly covered in major newspapers middle school is considered of questionable notability. I know it saves brain cells but does this make any sense? Wouldn't it make more sense to, you know, actually think about whether this one meets WP:ORG? —David Eppstein (talk) 17:18, 7 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

As to whether it makes sense to look at OUTCOMES in the case of schools, I posed similar questions years ago. The response I received -- largely from sysops DGG and Kudpung (who may wish to chime in here) -- as well as what I observed in AfD results, led me to understand that by the community's action there appears to be a consensus at school AfDs, as evidenced over the past few years, to act in accordance with past "outcomes". Whether that makes sense is perhaps something that could be revisited, either by RFC or at the Outcomes talk page, but as of now that consensus appears to be pretty solid. Whatever our view as to whether it makes sense. And I dare say that you and I could easily name some other wikipedia consensus positions that we abide by, even though we do not think they make sense. Epeefleche (talk) 19:01, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Oh, sure. It doesn't mean we shouldn't challenge them from time to time, though. —David Eppstein (talk) 23:29, 13 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:29, 7 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:29, 7 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Middle schools can be notable; they just need to meet GNG. I would say this school comes pretty close. I added another LA Times reference to the article; for a small elementary/middle school it has gotten a surprising amount of coverage from regional media. That plus winning the Blue Ribbon designation three times (I have seen it argued at AfD that Blue Ribbon status confers automatic notability, although I don't think that is a consensus) I think this one could be a keeper. In any case "delete" is not an option; the alternative to "keep" is "redirect to Irvine Unified School District". BTW the school's name is not unique - there are multiple other Vista Verde schools, and although none have articles, some exist here as redirects. So if the article is kept, we might consider a rename, perhaps to Vista Verde School (Irvine, California). --MelanieN (talk) 16:36, 8 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect - to "Irvine Unified School District". Or delete. --Why should I have a User Name? (talk) 18:49, 8 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep We in the past have often treated Blue Ribbon School as a distinction that provides notability.In favor of doing so, is that it's the highest US designation for public schools. The total number of schools awarded this distinction is 4,100, out of about 100,000 public primary intermediate and secondary schools: it therefore amount to the top 4%. A good case can be made that the top 4 or 5% of anything is notable. I consider the GNG irrelevant here, because it is always possible in any given case to say the sources are sufficiently disceriminating, or not, depending upon what conclusion you want to achieve. A rule that permits including anywhere from 0 to 100% of anything is of no value. DGG ( talk ) 01:39, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Three thoughts. First, as to Blue Ribbon schools ... have we in the past often not treated them as notable, as well? Second, I'm not sure but that you're over-reaching perhaps a tad when you assert: "A good case can be made that the top 4 or 5% of anything is notable". Third, do you have a response to David, as to his comments on not relying on OUTCOMES at AfDs, but instead on wp:ORG, and not treating high schools as per se notable (and those below it as unlikely to pass AfD)? Epeefleche (talk) 03:02, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Apparently, there are actually 7,000 schools that have been denoted as "Blue Ribbon" schools.

I took a glance at middle school/blue ribbon AfDs initiated in the past two years that I could find. Two were redirected. See Castillero Middle School (San Jose, California) Afd (where user:Cullen wrote: "There have been over 5,000 Blue Ribbon school awards, and the program is based on a self-assessment. These routine awards don't make a middle school notable, in my opinion."). And Joaquin Miller Middle School (San Jose, California) AfD. One was speedy deleted; Our Lady of Lourdes Catholic Church (Raleigh, North Carolina) AfD. And one that closed as a keep; see Calcedeaver Elementary School AfD.

Others are welcome to do their own search, and see what they find. In short, of the 4 articles, 2 were redirected, 1 was deleted, and 1 was kept -- not quite an endorsement that being a Blue Ribbon school per se is sufficient (though I note David points to the fact that this school won multiple times; but we don't know how rare or common that is among the 7,000 Blue Ribbon schools).

And the fact that there are so many of these schools raises a question -- are those that think Blue Ribbon status is sufficient to qualify a middle school as notable really suggesting that we now allow all 7,000 such schools to now be added to wp? Seems like a lot, compared to the number of schools we currently have on wp. Epeefleche (talk) 17:02, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I think it's a little disingenuous to point to all those past deletions without also observing that the two redirected ones (Joaquin and Castillero) had essentially no reliable secondary sources and that the speedy deletion was a copyright violation that had nothing to do with notability. —David Eppstein (talk) 22:22, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I certainly wasn't seeking to be disingenuous. I'm sure David wasn't personally accusing me of that. As with all AfDs, there will be individual difference in factors considered. These were the four such AfDs I found that were begun in that time period. Each was a middle school. In each, !voters pointed to Blue Ribbon status. Of course, if editors want to look beyond that, they should look to the individual AfDs to which I've linked (and I've already pointed to what David might call a distinguishing factor). And, as David presumably knows, I can't see (as to the redirected and deleted articles) what the original article looked like ... but I can see that editors sought to keep them on the basis of their being blue ribbon schools. :::::Also, as to the article that included copyvio, even those editors who focused on that (which were only some) focused on that in some cases only in part, or focused on that as to only one part of the article. It is anything but clear, but we do know that one can remove a copyvio from a notable organization and stub the article and leave it as a stand-alone, if it is indeed notable.

And we do know that both of the two editors who did consider whether the Blue Ribbon status made the middle school that was deleted notable (User:JoannaSerah and user:RadioFan) didn't quite get there in that AfD.Epeefleche (talk) 23:39, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Sorry for the unintended implication of dishonest intent; all I meant was that there's more to the story than what you said. Anyway, no special privileges are needed to see the pre-redirection content of those two articles (click on the history link in the AfD). And you don't need to see the content (just the log entry) to see that the deletion was over a copyvio. —David Eppstein (talk) 00:21, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks. In the speedy delete, the only reason I mentioned that particular AfD was because that it appears to be one of the most recent 4 middle school AfDs where editors considered whether it should be kept on the basis of being a Blue Ribbon school. Neither of the editors who considered that characteristic found it to be sufficiently notable to per se require a keep. Looking at that AfD and the other AfDs from the past two years, I don't see a consensus to consider a school to be notable by virtue of being one of the 7,000 Blue Ribbon schools. I'm still open to being swayed that being a three-time winner makes the school notable, if there is support for the infrequency of that. But now that I know that there are 7,000 such schools (not 5,200 as originally suggested), and now that I know that there is no pattern within the past two years of considering a school per se notable because it is a Blue Ribbon school, unless I see something more I would lean towards a redirect, without any prohibition on recreating relevant content at the target page. Epeefleche (talk) 01:25, 15 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect. Not that I personally care one way or the other, but as I mentioned in the issue that was brought up over it in my RfA nearly 4 years ago, I am concerned with consistency across Wikipedia. That consistency means following a well established practice demonstrated by long, strong precedent, even if it means a touch of IAR. People accuse me of using OUTCOMES as a guideline, saying it is only an essay; in fact it's neither one nor the other - its just a report of the facts in one place on how certain AfDs are likely to, well, outcome. There have been countless RfC and other less formal debates on getting the ideal solution for nn schools anchored in policy and/or an official guideline but every single one of them petered out with not even a 'no consensus' closure. Individuals, usually in roughly 12-month cycles, have a go at changing things through the back-door of mass AfDs, but that won't work either as Epeefleche is beginning to find out. School articles, whether notable or not, are generally not toxic so if the current practice ain't broke, there's no need to fix it. So I'll continue to vote 'redirect' in such cases until there is a firm consensus to do otherwise, and then I'll quite happily abide by whatever decision that happens to be. Kudpung กุดผึ้ง (talk) 14:42, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect. I simply don't see the "Blue Ribbon" thing as really that big of a deal and not something to get it past GNG. Niteshift36 (talk) 15:53, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Keep: Per DGG. A school can be notable even if its a middle school, though the number is not very great.--Milowent • ^hasspoken 16:35, 14 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect - Much of this discussion revolved around WP:OUTCOMES, which, while it is a useful prediction tool, is not a method for determining whether an article should be kept or deleted. The method that must be used is WP:GNG, regardless of whether some would inexplicably "consider the GNG irrelevant" in this case. Nearly all of the keep votes in this AfD are entirely unconvincing, relying on made-up criteria for notability like the Blue Ribbon School of Excellence. MelanieN attempts to show that the school meets the GNG by referring to some of the sources in the article. However, looking at the sources, I see nothing that rises above routine, local coverage of non-notable events that have happened at the school, like student test score results, the blue ribbon award, and the various events revolving around the school's location and land. There is no significant coverage in national/international publications, or publications that are outside the immediate local area of the school. In my opinion, none of this coverage rises to the level required by GNG. ‑Scottywong| confer _ 00:05, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]
- The region you classify as "the immediate local area" (greater Los Angeles, i.e. the home region for the LA Times) has roughly the same total population as the Netherlands. That doesn't seem particularly local to me. —David Eppstein (talk) 01:08, 16 July 2014 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.