Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Virtonomics (3rd nomination)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Sandstein 21:13, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Virtonomics[edit]

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As a result of a procedural error with a previous AfD close, there is a consensus at deletion review to speedily relist the AfD. I personally am neutral. —S Marshall T/C 17:53, 30 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Delete due to lack of significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject. Woodroar (talk) 01:44, 31 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]
- The subject was covered in detail by multiple reliable sources, including magazines Game World Navigator and Computerra, as well as academic journals Entertainment Computing (Elsevier) and Intelligent Information Management (Scientific Research Publishing), all of which are independent of the subject. --Joshua Issac (talk) 01:31, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - This article was previously significantly larger than its current form, and the removal of material was not undisputed. At the recently-closed DRV it was requested that participants consider the pre-trimming version of the article. Since the DRV was speedily-closed for procedural reasons, this point has not been discussed anywhere yet. Participants in this AfD may wish to consider whether the older version was acceptable. Thparkth (talk) 04:34, 31 December 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the significant coverage in reliable sources.
1. "Полмиллиона игроков в Виртономике" [Half a million players in Virtonomics] (in Russian). Tom's Hardware. 2009-09-24. Archived from the original on 2016-01-01. Retrieved 2016-01-01.
  The article notes:
  
  В середине сентября 2009 года число зарегистрированных пользователей экономической онлайн игры Виртономика превысило полмиллиона человек. Виртономика появилась довольно давно, в декабре 2006 года. С тех пор проект постоянно развивается и обновляется. Играть в Виртономику можно на русском и английском языках, в скором времени планируется запуск китайской версии игры. Так же до конца года планируется локализация игры на арабский, немецкий, французский, испанский и португальский языки. Проект Виртономика сочетает в себе элементы mmo-игры, бизнес-тренажера и экономической стратегии. В Виртономику играют самые разные люди: она интересна тем, кто занимается маркетингом, экономикой и бизнесом, но при этом любит онлайн игры, хочет знакомиться и общаться с интересными людьми.
  «Виртономика - уникальный и единственный в своем роде проект, онлайн симулятор бизнеса с детальнейшей проработкой экономики, с мощнейшим аналитическим аппаратом, с развитой коммуникативной средой, - говорит Сергей Меншиков, генеральный директор компании-разработчика. - В силу своей специфики Виртономика собирает уникальнейшую аудиторию - и по уровню образования, по уровню доходов и по уровню амбиций. В мае мы выпустили англоязычную версию игры, и в течение первых двух месяцев с момента ее запуска к нам поступило 6 предложений от университетов и бизнес-школ Великобритании, Индии, США, Канады по созданию локальных игровых пространств для их использования в процессах обучения студентов на различных курсах по экономике и менеджменту. В данный момент в Виртономику (VIRTONOMICS) играют люди из более чем 100 стран мира, хотя пока мы практически не предпринимали никаких активных действий по продвижению игры за рубежом. В конце года планируем начать активную экспансию игры VIRTONOMICS на все основные зарубежные рынки».
  Here is the Google Translate of the text:
  In mid-September 2009, the number of registered users online economic game Virtonomics exceeded half a million. Virtonomics appeared long ago, in December 2006. Since then, the project is constantly evolving and updated. Play Virtonomics can be in Russian and English, soon plans to launch a Chinese version of the game. Just before the end of the year is planned localization of the game in the Arabic, German, French, Spanish and Portuguese. Virtonomics project combines elements of mmo-game business simulator and economic strategy. Virtonomics play all kinds of people: it is of interest to those involved in marketing, economics and business, but the love games, wants to meet and communicate with interesting people.
  "Virtonomics - a unique and one of a kind design, online business simulation with detailed study of the economy, with strong analytical apparatus, the advanced communication medium, - says Sergey Menshikov, CEO of developer. - By their very nature Virtonomics collects unique audience - and by level of education, income level and the level of ambition. In May, we released an English version of the game, and during the first two months since its launch, we have received six proposals from universities and business schools in the UK, India, USA, Canada, to establish local gaming space to be used in the process of training students in various courses in economics and management. Currently Virtonomics (VIRTONOMICS) played by people from more than 100 countries around the world, but so far, we almost did not take any active steps to promote the game abroad. At the end of the year we plan to start the game VIRTONOMICS active expansion in all major international markets."
  Per Wikipedia:Verifiability#Non-English sources, "Citations to non-English sources are allowed."
2. "«Виртономика» и «Билайн»: получи $5 миллионов игровых денег" ["Virtonomics" and "Beeline": Get $5 million play money] (in Russian). Tom's Hardware. 2009-10-01. Archived from the original on 2016-01-01. Retrieved 2016-01-01.
  The article notes:
  
  Экономическая онлайновая игра «Виртономика» присоединилась к акции «Геймер», проводимой компанией «Билайн». По условиям акции «Геймер» все абоненты Домашнего Интернета «Билайн», подключенные к одному из тарифов с абонентской оплатой от 650 рублей и выше, с 1 сентября по 31 декабря 2009 года могут получить бонусы в популярных компьютерных онлайн играх.
  ...
  Напомним, что, как ранее сообщала редакция THG, в середине сентября 2009 года число зарегистрированных пользователей экономической онлайн-игры «Виртономика» превысило полмиллиона человек. «Виртономика» появилась довольно давно, в декабре 2006 года. С тех пор проект постоянно развивается и обновляется.
  The Google Translate of the text:
  The economic online game "Virtonomics" joined the action "gamer" by the company "Beeline". Under the terms of the action "Gamer" Home Internet all subscribers "Beeline", connected to one of the tariff with the subscription payment from 650 rubles and above, from September 1 to December 31, 2009 can receive bonuses in the popular computer online games.
  ...
  For more information about the game and about the campaign can be found on the official website of the project "Virtonomics."
  Recall that, as previously reported by the editors THG, in mid-September 2009 the number of registered users of the economic online game "Virtonomics" exceeded half a million. "Virtonomics" appeared a long time ago, in December 2006. Since then, the project is constantly evolving and updated.
3. Парамонова, Ника (2006-12-04). "Матрица для белых воротничков" [Matrix for white-collar]. Computerra (in Russian). Archived from the original on 2016-01-01. Retrieved 2016-01-01.
  The article notes:
  
  В "Виртономике" перед игроком предстают поистине широкие возможности: разработка месторождений, научные исследования и разработка новых технологий, постройка заводов и фабрик, открытие магазинов, банков, организация поставок, проведение рекламных кампаний и прочие радости бизнеса. Конечно, до реальной жизни список не дотягивает, но разработчики прикладывают все усилия к тому, чтобы сделать все механизмы наиболее схожими с настоящими.
  Открыв магазин, игрок может самостоятельно набирать персонал и выбирать товары и поставщиков. Товары тоже не без хитростей - они отличаются не только ценой, но и качеством и даже известностью брэнда. В ближайшем будущем, кстати, планируется ввести в игру настоящие бренды. Естественно, с разрешения их обладателей. А если всё сложится хорошо, то и не только с разрешения, а по договорённости о рекламе.
  По-настоящему ощутить всю прелесть "Виртономики" можно лишь поиграв какое-то время и столкнувшись с другими игроками. Конечно, не воспрещается иметь дело исключительно с компьютерными вендорами, но это значительно обеднит игровой процесс. Сотрудничая с людьми, можно не только потренироваться вести дела, но и получить куда большее удовольствие от игры.
  The Google Translate of the text:
  In "Virtonomics" appear before the player truly great opportunities: mining, research and development of new technologies, construction of factories, opening of shops, banks, the organization supplies, advertising campaigns and other pleasures of business. Of course, to the list of real life falls short, but the developers make every effort to ensure that all mechanisms to make the most similar to the present.
  Opening the shop, the player can independently recruit and select products and suppliers. Goods not without tricks - they differ not only the price but also the quality and even the famous brand. In the near future, by the way, is scheduled to play a real brand. Naturally, with the permission of their owners. And if all goes well, and not only with the permission and by arrangement on advertising.
  The really feel the charm "Virtonomics" can only be playing for a while, and when faced with other players. Of course, not precluded from dealing exclusively with computer vendors, but it is considerably impoverish gameplay. Working with people who can not only be trained to conduct business, but also to get much more pleasure from the game.
4. "Экономическая онлайн-игра "Виртономика" названа лучшей игрой 2007 года" [The economic online game "Virtonomics" named the best game of 2007]. Mail.Ru. 2008-01-29. Archived from the original on 2009-10-08. Retrieved 2011-04-23.
  The Google Translate of the text:
  Russian magazine "Game Navigator" - authoritative publication in the field of computer games - called economic online game "Virtonomics" the best browser game of 2007.
  "It's like" Capitalism 2 "if one understands what we are, but bigger, and of course, online. The game is not with themselves, and with thousands of people like us, the smart and prudent" - the newspaper notes.
  The "Virtonomics" represents a new generation of online games, where players learn the business playing. Economic and business orientation "Virtonomics" reflected in the qualitative composition of the audience, many of whom are senior managers and business owners, middle managers, private entrepreneurs.
  The magazine that named Virtonomics the best game of 2007 is Game World Navigator.
5. Çalışkan, Necdet (2010-12-19). "Kapitalizm oyuna geldi" [Capitalism came to the game]. Habertürk (in Turkish). Retrieved 2016-01-01.
  The article notes:
  
  3 - Virtonomics: Online olarak sanal şirketinizi kurup, gerçek piyasa koşullarında rekabet etmenizi sağlayan Virtonomics ile 17 temel sektörde 100’den fazla ürün ile girişimcilik yeteneğinizi ölçebiliyorsunuz.Üretim, ticaret, Ar-Ge, takas gibi faaliyetleri yürütebildiğiniz oyunda aşama kaydettikçe, petrol kuyularından, otomobil fabrikalarına, sebze ve meyve tarlalarından bankalara kadar birçok ortamla karşılaşıyorsunuz. Ofis kiralarını da dikkate almanız gereken ve internet üzerinden çoklu oyuncuyla en çok oynanan ekonomi oyunlarından olan Virtonomics, 40’dan fazla ülkeden 750 bin kullanıcı sayısına sahip.
  (+):Oyun internet üzerinden diğer kullanıcılara karşı da oynanabiliyor. Kullanıcı, ofisin tasarımından, şirketin logosuna kadar kendi oluşturuyor.
  (–): Üretim, pazarlama, bilimsel araştırma gibi faaliyetlerin olduğu oyunda en büyük eksiklik hisse senedi borsasının olmayışı.
  The Google Translate of the text:
  3 - Virtonomics: set up your virtual company online, allowing you to compete in the real market conditions Virtonomics 17 main sectors in more than 100 products with my ölçebiliyorsunuz.üret your entrepreneurial skill, trade, R & D, you can carry out activities such as clearing the game stage kaydettikçe by, the oil wells, the car plant, up to the banks of the fruits and vegetables you are experiencing many middle field. Office rents and the need to take into account Virtonomics economy, one of the most played games with multiple players on the internet, with the number of 750 thousand users from more than 40 countries.
  (+): The game can be played against other users over the internet. The user of the design office, creating their own until the company's logo.
  (-): Production, marketing, lack of largest stock exchange in the game that the lack of activities such as scientific research.
6. Cruz-Cunha, Maria Manuela (2012). Handbook of Research on Serious Games as Educational, Business and Research Tools. Hershey, Pennsylvania: IGI Global. p. 609. ISBN 978-1466601505. Retrieved 2016-01-01.
  The book notes:
  
  The Virtonomics Economics
  Game Online
  Virtonomics (http://virtonomics.com) is an online economic simulation based on the principles of MMOG games. The player creates a company that will compete with the game's artificial intelligence and other players and may also establish cooperative partnersehips. The aim is to create a successful business, and the players can carry out activities like production, sales, scientific research, mining, agriculture, trading in international financial markets, marketing, logistics and other management processes.
7. "Виртономика" [Virtonomics]. CNews. RBC Information Systems. Archived from the original on 2016-01-01. Retrieved 2016-01-01.
  The article notes:
  
  «Виртономика» - это не просто игра. Это уникальный симулятор реальных экономических процессов. Если обычно Вам доставляет удовольствие лишь монотонное кликанье по противникам с банальной целью убить или завоевать, вряд ли Вы найдете здесь для себя что-то интересное. Этот мир для людей, которые побеждают силой интеллекта, навыками убеждения, умением анализировать и прогнозировать.
  Но если Вы не боитесь трудностей, создайте свою корпорацию, ведь не политики вершат судьбы мира, а предприниматели, стоящие за их спиной.
  Мир Виртономики состоит из взаимосвязанных экономических отраслей и разделён на страны, регионы и города. Каждый игрок управляет виртуальной компанией, целью которой является получение прибыли за счет разработки ресурсов, производства и продажи товаров и т.д.
  Кроме того, реалистичность игровых процессов и механизмов позволяет использовать игру в качестве инструмента для исследования, бизнес-тренажера для руководителей и маркетологов, а так же для наглядной иллюстрации курса экономической теории для школьников и студентов
  The Google Translate of the text:
  "Virtonomics" - is not just a game. It is a unique simulation of real economic processes. If normally you enjoy a monotonous Clicking on the enemy from the banal to kill or conquer, it is unlikely you will find here for himself something interesting. This world is for people who are winning by force of intellect, skills of persuasion, the ability to analyze and predict.
  But if you are not afraid of difficulties, create a corporation, because not heard by the fate of the world policy, and businessmen standing behind them.
  World Virtonomics consists of interrelated economic sectors and divided into countries, regions and cities. Each player controls a virtual company, the purpose of which is to make profit at the expense of resource development, production and sale of goods, etc.
  In addition, realistic gameplay and mechanisms can be used in the game as a tool for research, business simulator for managers and marketers, as well as to illustrate the course of economic theory for students
8. Суворов, Николай (2008-01-24). "Журнал "Навигатор игрового мира": Virtonomica — лучшая браузерная игра 2007 года" [Magazine "Game World Navigator": Virtonomica - the best browser game 2007]. MoneyNews. Archived from the original on 2016-01-01. Retrieved 2016-01-01.
  The article notes:
  
  Российский журнал «Навигатор игрового мира» назвал экономическую онлайн-игру Virtonomica лучшей браузерной игрой 2007 года. Проект «Виртономика» представляет собой новое поколение онлайн-развлечений, где игроки учатся бизнесу, играя. Экономическая и бизнес направленность «Виртономики» отразилась на качественном составе аудитории: львиную долю игроков составляют топ-менеджеры и владельцы компаний, менеджеры среднего звена и частные предприниматели.
  Разумеется, онлайн-игра «Виртономика» — это еще и канал для взаимодействия с платежеспособной аудиторией пользователей Интернета, а также доступ в уникальную среду для маркетинговых исследований и акций.
  В процессе игры участники тесно взаимодействуют с брэндом, эффективность рекламного контакта увеличивается в несколько раз. Брэнд включен непосредственно в игровой процесс, а также в визуальное оформление игры и сферу около-игрового общения участников (форумы, чаты, индивидуальная деловая переписка). Такой метод продвижения оказывается гораздо эффективнее традиционной интернет-рекламы в поисковых системах и баннерообменных сетях, утверждается в пресс-релизе «Виртономики».
  Напомним, что многопользовательская экономическая онлайн-игра «Виртономика» появилась в 2006 году и с этого момента живет по реальным макроэкономическим законам. Мир игры состоит из взаимосвязанных отраслей экономики и разделен на страны, регионы и города. Каждый игрок в «Виртономике» развивает свой бизнес, управляя виртуальной компанией, получая прибыль за счет разработки ресурсов, производства и продажи товаров и т.д.
  The Google Translate of the text:
  Russian magazine "Game Navigator" called economic online game Virtonomica best browser game of 2007. The "Virtonomics" represents a new generation of online games, where players learn the business playing. Economic and business orientation "Virtonomics" reflected in the qualitative composition of the audience, the players make up the lion's share of top managers and owners of companies, middle managers and private entrepreneurs.
  Of course, the online game "Virtonomics" - it is also a channel for interaction with the solvent audience of Internet users, as well as access to a unique environment for market research and promotions.
  During the game, participants work closely with the brand, the effectiveness of advertising exposure increases several times. Brand inserted directly into the gameplay as well as the visual design of the game and around-game scope of communication between participants (forums, chats, personal business correspondence). This method of promotion is much more efficient than traditional Internet advertising in search engines and banner exchange networks, according to a press release, "Virtonomics."
  Recall that the economic multiplayer online game "Virtonomics" appeared in 2006 and since that time lives on real macroeconomic laws. The game world consists of interrelated industries, and is divided into countries, regions and cities. Each player in "Virtonomics" develops its business by managing a virtual company to profit from the development of resources, production and sale of goods, etc.
  According to http://www.banki.ru/news/bankpress/?id=942647^WebCite (banki.ru/ru:Банки.ру is a news agency founded by Russian journalist ru:Ищеева, Елена Вячеславовна):
  «Подобно тому, как сайты знакомств и сервисы по продаже рингтонов приучили россиян платить с помощью отправки SMS на платный номер, есть шанс, что популярные интернет-сервисы приучат людей пользоваться интернет-деньгами,— считает главный издатель интернет-проекта MoneyNews.ru Виктор Захарченко.— Например, в популярной социальной сети «Вконтакте.ру» за последнее время появились MoneyMail, e-port, «Единый кошелек» (W1.ru), Roboxchange, LiqPay».
  The Google Translate of the text:
  "Just as dating sites and services to sell ringtones taught Russians to pay by sending a SMS to a paid number, there is a chance that the popular internet services accustom people to use online money - says the chief editor of the Internet project MoneyNews.ru Viktor Zakharchenko .- for example, in the popular social network "Vkontakte.ru" recently appeared MoneyMail, e-port, «wallet» (W1.ru), Roboxchange, LiqPay ».
  This verifies that MoneyNews.ru has editorial oversight. Виктор Захарченко (Viktor Zakharchenko) is the chief editor of MoneyNews.ru.
9. Чинарова, Екатерина (December 2006). Викторов, Денис (ed.). "Бизнесмен играющий: Сетевые money−пуляции" [Businessman playing: Network money-populations]. Бизнес-журнал. p. 13. Archived from the original (PDF) on 2016-01-02. Retrieved 2016-01-02.
  Here is a list of b-mag.ru editors and staff. According to Google Books, here is a description of the 100,000-circulation magazine, b-mag.ru (Бизнес-журнал):
  «Бизнес-журнал» (www.b-mag.ru) – самое массовое всероссийское деловое издание, адресованное предпринимателям, управляющим собственникам и топ-менеджерам компаний. Выходит ежемесячно в более чем 20 регионах России общим тиражом около 100 тысяч экземпляров.
  Журнал является открытой площадкой для обмена предпринимательским опытом, для распространения информации о лучших деловых практиках и популяризации современных управленческих, финансовых и
  The Google Translate of the Google Books' description of the source:
  «Business magazine» (www.b-mag.ru) - the most massive all-Russian business publication, addressed to entrepreneurs, managers and owners of top managers. Issued monthly in more than 20 regions of Russia with a total circulation of about 100,000 copies.
  The magazine is an open platform for the exchange of business experience, to disseminate information about best business practices and the promotion of modern management, financial and...
  Here is a Google Translate of part of the text.
  A snippet of the Google Translate:
  One of the Russian Examples examples of successful creation of virtual Noah gaming business environment - implementation ized Alexei Kuznetsov in 2004 the project Money Mania. Each participant gets determined during the registration dividing the amount of virtual money, with which comes into play. Facilities can be directed to the creation of pre- acceptance, payment of expenses or investment tion. Selling products to other players and "public" virtual entrepreneur earns de gentle remedies that may be used use to development. Money Mania quickly became popular, and the number of plays for a short time pre- Stigl six thousand. However, the game had a certain technical limitations, it is difficult It was to maintain and develop. In 2006 year to work on the project nect familiarize new group of investors and develop- handler, who decided to create BO Lee advanced version, calling it "Virtonomics» (www.virtonomica.ru). Now the game is testing hundreds of players, The official launch is planned December 11. "One of the principled GOVERNMENTAL differences and innovations, "Virto- omy "will be better adapted to the the current realities of the Internet. There will be new elements - the ability to pro- led research and, as a consequence, to create new products. We also introduce a system franchayzin- ha, which was lacking in the Money Mania », - explains the head Project Sergey Menshikov.
  The article provides a detailed description of the game. Google Translate of the text:
  AT the game will bemore elements capable posche-Kota vanity players. For example,at the start of the business you have tohuddle in the inferior virtualoffice, but with the growth of profits Interiorand the view outside the window will change, poyavyat-Xia personal account and such attributes prosperity as yachts, limousines andthe beautiful secretary. InnerArchitecture project after "apgrey-yes "will transform" Virtonomi-ku "in a unique platform for product placement. Already signed con-tract manufacturer GPS-navigationtori.
There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Virtonomics to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".
Cunard (talk) 05:38, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Sources 1 and 2 are press releases. (See here and here, for example.) Source 4 doesn't seem to work for me, but the text above appears identical to this article from Internet.ru, also a press release. (See it at softkey.info, where it is clearly marked as a press release.) All of these articles make claims that are inherently self-serving and should be sourced to reliable, third-party published sources. For example, I am unable to find any independent source covering Game World Navigator's 2007 awards, which generally indicates that they're not considered very important. Sources 5 and 6 are trivial, just a few sentences each. This leaves Computerra, which does appear to be significant, reliable, and independent, though it's still a single source. Woodroar (talk) 07:10, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that sources 1 and 2 cannot be used to establish notability. Although source 4 is a press release, it notes that the Russian computer games magazine Game World Navigator named Virtonomics the best game of 2007. This strongly indicates the Game World Navigator has provided substantial coverage of Virtonomics.

I believe the newspaper Habertürk's review provides significant coverage of the subject. It describes how the game works and has critical analysis of the game:

(+): The game can be played against other users over the internet. The user of the design office, creating their own until the company's logo.
(–): Production, marketing, lack of largest stock exchange in the game that the lack of activities such as scientific research.

We agree that the Computerra article provides substantial coverage.

I've added source 7, a review published by the Russian media group RBC Information Systems.

Cunard (talk) 19:45, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The CNews source is a database entry. In nearly all cases, WPVG has considered these to be unreliable, because they're added by the publishers or otherwise user-submitted and not in any way fact-checked by the publisher. We also like to see author by-lines and significant coverage of a game rather than a few sentences about many games, which are both problems with Habertürk. As far as the award goes, I am unable to find any third-party coverage of its existence. I mean, major award winners don't have to issue press releases announcing that they've won. Journalists do that for them. We absolutely need independent sources to verify everything here, especially because of this article's history of sockpuppetry and meatpuppetry from the publisher. Woodroar (talk) 20:27, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The Habertürk article was written by Necdet Çalışkan and provides significant coverage. Per Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, "Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it need not be the main topic of the source material." It is clear that the Habertürk article is "more than a trivial mention" because it provides a description of the game, praises the game for some features, and criticizes the game for its deficiencies.

I've added source 8 from Nikolay Suvorov (Николай Суворов) of MoneyNews.ru, which verifies that Game World Navigator called Virtonomics the best browser game of 2007.

While the Game World Navigator award may not be a major award, the award strongly indicates that Game World Navigator had substantial coverage of Virtonomics.

Cunard (talk) 22:13, 1 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Another press release, or at least a partial rewrite as much of it is copied verbatim. It even mentions the press release in the article. And as for Habertürk goes, I'm not convinced. I'd like to see more significant coverage, another article about the subject or at least something more in-depth than a few sentences and pros/cons. But that's just my $0.02. Woodroar (talk) 00:23, 2 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think the articles in Computerra and Habertürk are by themselves enough to establish notability because they both are "more than a trivial mention" (quoting from Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline). The Russian computer games magazine Game World Navigator likely has a detailed profile of Virtonomics since it named Virtonomics the best browser game in 2007, although the article is not available online. Cunard (talk) 00:36, 2 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Video games-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 13:54, 2 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Business-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 13:54, 2 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Websites-related deletion discussions. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 13:55, 2 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

@Cunard, has any single reliable source reviewed this game? Or are these small snippets the best we have? Also what is your method for searching for Russian articles? czar 18:02, 2 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Computerra has a very detailed review of the game. It is likely that Game World Navigator also has a detailed review of the game since it named Virtonomics the best browser game of 2007; however, the article is not available online. I searched for Russian sources about Virtonomics by searching "Виртономика" (Virtonomics) on Google. Cunard (talk) 19:02, 2 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. A bunch of mentions, but not enough to constitute significant coverage. If it had four reviews, it'd be fine, but it doesn't even have two. And I have my doubts about the major review under discussion—the one by Computerra. Our article on the mag has its print circ at 60k (very low...) and the site has no staff posted. Perhaps it's just in decline after its print mag folded, but there's very little to instill confidence as it is. In any event, send this to draft if someone else wants it there, but I don't see enough in-depth secondary source coverage to actually write something of substance on this topic. When this topic becomes sufficiently popular, the reliable source coverage will follow. czar 19:59, 2 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I've added source 9 from the 100,000-circulation business magazine Бизнес-журнал, which discusses the subject's origination and description in detail. Virtonomics has four reviews: the Computerra article, the Habertürk article, the offline print Game World Navigator article, and the business magazine Бизнес-журнал article. Only two sources are required to establish notability so any two of these four is enough.
The Computerra article was published in 2006. Here (Google Translate) is a list of editors in December 2006. 60,000 circulation for a Russian print game magazine is substantial. Cunard (talk) 22:20, 2 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think this is reckless. The Бизнес-журнал puffery-filled description is not from Google Books, as GB isn't a source, but PR directly from the mag. The Habertürk article is a listing of several games, of which this one gets a very small mention. The point of sigcov is that a topic is widely and thoroughly discussed and it isn't done in these sources. (Requiring "two sources" is particularly reckless, because GNG sets no such restriction and two small blurbs hardly ever—actually, never—constitute sigcov.) As for GWN—we can't judge sources we cannot access. It's a noble attempt, but this isn't even close to sigcov or even two full reviews. (If a game is not reviewed in any reputable outlet, it needs some serious coverage in other sources to justify writing an article without a Reception section.) czar 03:46, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I did not say source 9 was from Google Books. Google Books hosts the content that is also hosted on the magazine's website. I said the content in source 9 is from the 100,000-circulation business magazine Бизнес-журнал. That detailed article is written by a neutral, third-party source and can be used to establish notability. Why do you say it is "PR"? Cunard (talk) 04:04, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

According to Google Books, here is a description of the 100,000-circulation implies that Google/GB had some authority in the matter, but it's repeating the company's choice PR claim: the most massive all-Russian business publication (can't take that at face value) czar 04:58, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I quoted that text from Google Books to show that b-mag (Бизнес-журнал) is a business magazine with 100,000 circulation. You are correct that that is PR from the magazine about itself, which is also available on its website here. To avoid any misunderstanding, I should have quoted from the Google Books page and noted that the description is PR from the magazine itself. My apologies.

I'd like you to consider the material about Virtonomics in the b-mag (Бизнес-журнал) article. I think that b-mag is a reliable source with editorial oversight, that it is independent from Virtonomics, and that it provides detailed coverage of Virtonomics.

What are your thoughts about the coverage in b-mag (Бизнес-журнал) of Virtonomics? See page 13.

Cunard (talk) 05:22, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

It looked fine, but my larger point was that that ref (about a paragraph) alongside Computerra together are not sufficient for the GNG czar 17:22, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I think the article in b-mag (Бизнес-журнал) provides six paragraphs (roughly six hundred words) about the subject so amounts to sufficient coverage. Here is the Google Translate.

The article talks about Alexei Kuznetsov's Money Mania project in 2004, which b-mag calls "one of the successful Russian examples of virtual gaming business environment". The article then describes how the game worked and how it received a following of 6,000 people. The article says the Money Mania project had "technical limitations" because it was "difficult to maintain and develop". Therefore, in 2006, the developers created an "advanced version" of Money Mania, renaming it Virtonomics. The rest of the article has an in-depth description of Virtonomics (for example, how Virtonomics has new features Money Mania didn't have). I think this article and the Computerra article both provide significant coverage about the subject.

Would you review the Google Translate link I included earlier in this post?

Cunard (talk) 19:51, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I used the same translation service when it was first posted. I have trouble accepting the translation's claim ("one of the successful Russian examples of virtual gaming business environment") given that this blurb and one review are the best we can do on the subject. That's why this doesn't pass the GNG. czar 22:09, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

There are at least two detailed reviews: the Computerra article and the 600-word b-mag (Бизнес-журнал) article. The translation's claim that this is "one of the successful Russian examples of virtual gaming business environment" does not detract from the article's reliability, independence, or depth of coverage about the subject. It is not an extraordinary claim. That Virtonomics when it was called "Money Mania" was able to gain a following of 6,000 people by 2006 established it as a successful Russian example of virtual gaming in 2006. 6,000 users might not make a game be considered a successful example of virtual gaming now, but the source considered it successful for 2006. Cunard (talk) 22:30, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

No, the latter has no elements of a review and it could even call the game Russia's greatest—the semantics don't even matter here as much as coverage. Can we do any justice to this topic with the available reliable coverage (this review and some backstory, if we can even extract it from the Russian translation)? No—not even close, and to that effect, there's nothing else for me to add czar 23:13, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

As I have mentioned below, the article has been covered by multiple peer-reviewed academic papers, as well as two magazines (Game World Navigator and Computerra), and multiple news articles, which is enough and more to do justice to this topic. --Joshua Issac (talk) 01:24, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Not covered, but mentioned. They add no substantial additional discussion of the topic. And no one has found a GWN article—for all we know, there isn't even a blurb. "Implied" coverage is not coverage, especially when this conversation is about detail. czar 08:49, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as there's some coverage here and there but perhaps simply not enough, draft and userfy if needed. SwisterTwister talk 01:44, 3 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - notability is implied by coverage in reliable sources, such as the following academic papers (which were deleted from the article, but have since been restored):
- Bellotti, F; Berta, R; De Gloria, A; Lavagnino, E; Antonaci, A; Dagnino, F; Ott, M; Romero, M; Usart, M; Mayer, I.S. (2014). "Serious games and the development of an entrepreneurial mindset in higher education engineering students". Entertainment Computing. 5 (4). Elsevier: 357–366. doi:10.1016/j.entcom.2014.07.003. Retrieved 2014-12-14.
  - Scientific paper about business simulation games, reviewed a number of games, including Virtonomics, for their effectiveness in business training, and went into detail about which skills and competencies each game tries to develop. Published in the journal Entertainment Computing by academic publisher Elsevier.
- Blažič, Andrej Jerman; Ribeiro, Claudia; Fernandes, João; Pereira, João; Arh, Tanja (2012). "Analysing the Required Properties of Business Simulation Games to Be Used in E-Learning and Education". Intelligent Information Management. 4 (6). Scientific Research Publishing: 348–356. doi:10.4236/iim.2012.46039.
  - Scientific paper about a study of 8 business simulation games in the context of e-learning. It analysed and compared Virtonomics with the other games under review. Published by academic publisher Scientific Research Publishing.
- These are not the only sources, of course. Mentioned above was the Internet.ru news article about an award the game won from the games magazine Game World Navigator, implying substantial coverage by that as well. This is backed up by the Alliance Media Business Press article [1]. --Joshua Issac (talk) 01:14, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Intelligent Information Management is a trivial source, just four sentences that really don't say much at all. Entertainment Computing is better, a few paragraphs and part of a chart, although it's still lacking much detail. I'm surprised that you would reinstate the content referenced to these sources, though, because they really don't support the claims being made. (Which was why I removed them in the first place.) And not only that: though it's short on details, Entertainment Computing is mostly negative criticism about the game, none of which made it into your summary. Woodroar (talk) 02:58, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The IIM source is far from trivial. Aside from the four-sentence description of the game, it also contains an evaluation of its features (table 1) compared to other games, and criticism of the support material it uses. Sources do not have be praising a subject for them to demonstrate its notability. If by "none of which made it into your summary" you are accusing me of puffing up the subject by mentioning only the positives, then you are barking up the wrong tree, as I did not add any new content to the article (aside from the name of a magazine that reviewed it), only sources to support existing content, until this 3rd AfD. Both papers noted that the subject is a multiplayer business simulation game, and that is the statement that they supported, so I do not understand why you removed them. --Joshua Issac (talk) 23:10, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The restored content is often peacocky/promotional in tone and was originally added by editors with conflicts of interest, like the developer and marketer. For example, the sentence "[i]t simulates the basic principles and processes of businesses in a competitive environment" is sourced to Intelligent Information Management, but that source doesn't support the claim. IIM mentions studying and testing "basics of management" but nothing about "processes" or "competitive environment". Our phrasing makes the game sound exciting through buzzwords but the source is more neutral in that presentation. Next, the sentence "[i]n the game, players may engage in agriculture, exploitation of natural resources, manufacturing, trade, foreign exchange market trade, finance, personnel management, marketing, logistics, scientific research and other business processes" is sourced to Entertainment Computing, which is a poor summary of the source. EC does mention some items on this list, but not all of them. And where our phrasing again is positive ("may engage in"), the source characterizes its own list as mandatory and criticizes the game's lack of support throughout. So they're really not being used to reference Virtonomics being a "multiplayer business simulation game", but more POV claims that they do not support. I still disagree that these sources constitute significant coverage, but that's another issue and we'll likely have to agree to disagree there. Woodroar (talk) 00:28, 6 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I accessed both of these academic papers. Both use the game as an example (among many) of a simulation, but with little description and nothing added on the value of the game. It's self-defeating to say that this sort of mention means anything towards notability because all of the other games used in the studies (with the same weighting) are equally not notable. We're back to having a bunch of mentions and calling it significant coverage when there is nothing of substance to be written on the topic. czar 08:43, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Keep – The topic passes WP:GNG, per a detailed review of overall source coverage about the topic. The topic has even been the subject of academic research. North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 02:08, 5 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The subject of the academic research was business games, of which Virtonomics was only one of many and not elaborated in detail. czar 08:49, 7 January 2016 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.