Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ukrainian Soviet Republic

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎ without prejudice to further discussion of a merge. The nomination rationale that this subject is a hoax or OR-constructed topic has been refuted in discussion. _signed,Rosguill ^talk 04:13, 19 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ukrainian Soviet Republic[edit]

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WP:OR or WP:HOAX, no reliable source, no Russian or Ukrainian interwiki. Panam2014 (talk) 09:50, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Automated comment: This AfD was not correctly transcluded to the log (step 3). I have transcluded it to Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Log/2023 June 11. —^{cyberbot I}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 10:04, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History and Ukraine. Spiderone^{(Talk to Spider)} 10:22, 11 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not a hoax. The Bolsheviks formed governments in Ukraine three times.

Paul Robert Magocsi (1996), A History of Ukraine, 1st ed.

p 495: . . . November 1917. Soon after, [the Bolsheviks] formed a Soviet Ukrainian government and, with Bolshevik Russian help, drove their erstwhile Rada ally out of Kiev. Their control of the city lasted for only three weeks in February 1918, until the German Army forced them out of Kiev and, shortly after, out of Dnieper Ukraine entirely. . . .
p 497: They regrouped in Taganrog, on the shores of the Sea of Azov, where on 18 April they dissolved their own Soviet Ukrainian government and replaced it with a coordinating committee that was to direct the struggle against the German occupier. . . . On 19–20 April 1918, the distinct Communist party (Bolshevik) of Ukraine – (CP(b)U) was established, although it was to become increasingly subordinate to the Russian Communist party.
p 497–98: They were in fact already close to the Ukrainian border at Kursk, where on 28 November 1918 they secretly formed a ‘provisional’ Soviet Ukrainian government (Tymchasovyi Robitnychno-Seliansʹkyi Uriad Ukraïny) with the intention of marching into Dnieper Ukraine. . . . The Ukrainian Soviet Republic was Ukrainian in the territorial, not the national sense . . .

I believe this article represents the first part of Ukrainian People's Republic of Soviets. This article could be merged into that one, but these were two separate governments, so there is a case for articles about them. Ultimately, maybe there should be an overview article about the history of Bolshevism in Ukraine, and separate ones for each of the three governments. —Michael Z. 05:19, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Mzajac: so the name Ukrainian Soviet Republic for the fist government is false. We could have one or two articles about the Bolshevik Republics in Ukraine but we need one article by government. The articles should be rewrited and/or renamed. Panam2014 (talk) 11:27, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don’t know if the name is wrong. Magocsi uses it in the context of the second government, but that doesn’t mean it isn’t used for the first. It seems logical that the first Soviet Ukrainian government was also intended to be a government of Soviet Ukraine, a republic.

Will try to do a bit more research. —Michael Z. 15:17, 13 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Orest Subtelny (2015), Ukraine: A History, 4th ed., refers to the SUR at the start, and three Ukrainian Soviet governments:

p 350: Furious [after the Kyiv congress of December 17, 1917], the small Bolshevik faction abandoned the congress, moved to Kharkiv, denounced the Central Rada as the “enemy of the people,” and proclaimed the creation of the Soviet Ukrainian Republic. At the same time, Bolshevik troops from Russia began the invasion of Ukraine.
p 364: After much wavering, Moscow sanctioned the formation of another Ukrainian Soviet government on 20 November 1918.
p 365: The second Ukrainian Soviet government lasted about seven months.
p 376: Therefore, the formation, on 21 December 1919, of the third Ukrainian Soviet government was accompanied with patriotic rhetoric such as “the free and independent Ukrainian Socialist Soviet Republic again arises from the dead.”

—Michael Z. 00:54, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Serhii Plokhy (2015), The Gates of Europe: A History of Ukraine doesn’t cover the history of the Bolshevik régime in detail for this period, but does mention its start.

p 208: The Bolshevik organizers left Kyiv for Kharkiv, where a congress of soviets from the industrial east of the country met in late December. It declared the creation of a new sate, the Ukrainian People’s Republic of Soviets, on December 24, 1917. At the beginning of January 1918, Bolshevik troops from Russia entered Ukraine and moved on Kyiv under the banner of the virtual state proclaimed in Kharkiv, which would eventually become the capital of Soviet Ukraine.
p 219: Of all the regimes and armies that fought in Ukraine in 1919, the Bolsheviks left the largest footprint and kept Kyiv in their hands longest—from February to August, and then again in December.
p 220: After the defeat of Denikin and the recapture of Kyiv in December 1919, the Bolsheviks decided to learn from their mistakes of the previous year. ¶ Vladimir Lenin himself spelled out the “lesson of 1919” for his followers. According to Lenin, the Bolsheviks had neglected the nationality question. Consequently, the Bolshevik army returned to Ukrain bin late 1919 and early 1920 under the banner of the formally independent Ukrainian Socialist Soviet Republic and tried to address the Ukrainians in their native language.

—Michael Z. 01:43, 15 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep without prejudice to moving or merging. Srnec (talk) 22:48, 14 June 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.