Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Timeline of Russian innovation

Add links
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. I see a consensus to Keep this article with the caveat that major editing work remains to be done to restore a NPOV. Any volunteers? Liz Read! Talk! 01:23, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Timeline of Russian innovation[edit]

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

Timeline of Russian innovation (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

Wikipedia is not a collection of indiscriminate opinionated information. The term "innovation" is itself vague. For example, article creators think that Saint Basil's Cathedral and Antarctica are "Russian innovations". Not to say it misappropriates items originated among East Slavs well before Russia or Muscovy times, as well as originated in other cultures, such as pelmeni or sarafan, i.e., it is part of Russian nationalistic propaganda. This list may contain tens of thousands items. - Altenmann >talk 20:30, 11 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

A list of Russian inventions and discoveries is not indiscriminate. ‡ El cid, el campeador talk 12:32, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It is as an indiscriminate list as List of songs about death or something like that, deleted en masse some time ago.- Altenmann >talk 16:07, 12 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The argument here isn't that the article is incorrect, it is that the article can never be correct. This is because of many factors; the much less well defined nature of what is Russian and what isn't being one, the inherently POV nature of the wording "Russian innovation" being another. At minimum, I believe that a move to a better title and a large scale rewrite bordering on WP:TNT is needed. The title is a valid point of contention because it defines the scope of the article, and with the current wording of the title, I doubt that this scope is encyclopaedic. Of course, one could make similar argument that the examples you raised of the other nations suffer from the exact same issue; I have not read through those articles and am hence unable to comment on that. However, that doesn't preclude us from making arguments limited to this article in particular. Fermiboson (talk) 13:48, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There are similar articles about other cultures: e.g. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_science_and_technology_in_China.
Perhaps the article can be renamed, and it certainly can be improved, but it does not meet the Requirements for Deletion even in its present form. Furthermore, a statement such as "it is part of Russian nationalistic propaganda" sounds like a propaganda itself, and it is not a part of wiki-vocabulary. Walter Tau (talk) 11:44, 14 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The term "propaganda" is a valid part of any vocabulary. And appropriating Ukrainian and Belarusian inventions is nothing but "Great Russian chauvinism", not to say about appropriation of things not invented in Russia (of any definition), such as sarafan or bardiche. - Altenmann >talk 15:00, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Natg 19 (talk) 01:12, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. There are large parts which are good (earlier sections), but many later parts are just lists and some are bloat. Two in early 20th century I noticed are 1890 Chemosynthesis (work not done in Russia) and 1927 LED (not the first). Two of the later bad ones are 2004 Graphene, where none of the work was done in Russia, and 2020 COVID vaccine which implies these were invented in Russia. However, just because it is not very accurate in places is not grounds for deletion, as others have stated.
Ldm1954 (talk) 08:00, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep; obviously with curation for accuracy. Country boundaries move around, and the exact relations between historical discoveries and modern country borders or ethnic definitions are often difficult to determine, but Russia has a long, long history as a major player in world culture and technology, and it's perfectly valid to have a time-line of Russian inventions, just as we can for any major country, region, or people(s). As a side-note, it's very important not to let modern politics influence how we report history. Elemimele (talk) 09:07, 18 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak delete. There is no doubt the topic is notable, but I believe it falls under the category of "lists which can never be made complete, NPOV or satisfy encyclopaedic standards". Setting aside all question of politics, "timeline" usually refers to a coherent, correlated and casually linked chain of events. This is not the case for any suitable definition of "Russian innovation", given the obvious issues with imports of technology and science and interaction with the outside world. The example given above, History of science and technology in China, has a much clearer scope and, most importantly, is not a list. It is an article about history and historiography of a particular topic in a particular region, not a list of discoveries that are somehow manifestly Russian in nature. The wording "Russian innovation" also smells a lot like someone high on смекалка. If the consensus is against a delete, then I suggest at minimum Merge to History of science and technology in Russia (which, note, is an article that already exists, is much more NPOV, and much more well written.) Fermiboson (talk) 13:23, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
And considering the sensitivity of the subject, I'm tempted to do a WP:TNT nuke of the modern sections for a rewrite before the AfD closes. That's a discussion better left for the talk pages, however. Fermiboson (talk) 13:25, 19 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Please do not do a TNT on this article before this AFD is closed. Editors need to be able to evaluate the entire article. Feel free to add improvements.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 00:57, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Would anyone object to posting a notice to the AfD at village pump, or other neutral centralised discussion venue? I feel like this AfD touches on issues that would benefit from wider community input. Fermiboson (talk) 11:08, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I have posted a notice at Wikipedia:Help desk/AfD for Timeline of Russian innovation requiring wider community attention. Fermiboson (talk) 12:48, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Or, well, I can’t seem to get that link right. It’s there, anyways. Fermiboson (talk) 12:48, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong delete. Innovation is not restricted to technology, which doesn't describe Saint Basil's Cathedral or vodka anyway. Even if it were narrowed down to just technological innovations, it would be far too broad to be manageable. It would have to list every significant datable Russian invention. Clarityfiend (talk) 11:15, 25 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist, I still see no consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 01:38, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep. Timeline articles' focus and depth can be adjusted if needed by changing the level of summary or the inclusion criteria. We could also split as needed if it gets too long. As a list it serves a different purpose from History of science and technology in Russia. —siroχo 04:27, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep but heavily re-write - There's no doubt that a list of prominent Russian inventions would pass WP:LISTN, however the article as it stands is not NPOV, but instead heavily nationalistic (indeed, Russian claims to have invented things not invented in Russia is part of the reason why Russian inventions are so well-covered...). It's debatable whether "Russia" actually invented a number of things credited to Russia in this article, particularly as the article does not distinguish between the Russian empire, USSR, and Russian Federation. To pick one example, the claim that Russians invented the first airliner is dubious - aircraft carried passengers before 1913, the company that built the aircraft claimed as the first airliner in this case was the Russo-Balt company which had a HQ in Riga, and Igor Sikorsky, who designed it, was born in Kyiv and died in the United States. FOARP (talk) 15:55, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge into Science and technology in Russia. The "timeline" format is unencyclopedic for this content. Owen× ☎ 00:21, 8 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
Retrieved from "https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Articles_for_deletion/Timeline_of_Russian_innovation&oldid=1184050154"