Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thoma of Villarvattom

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep‎. The article has been reduced to a stub and there is a consensus that is can be further improved, and that deletion is not appropriate. Ritchie333 (talk) (cont) 11:32, 18 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Thoma of Villarvattom[edit]

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Thoma of Villarvattom (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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No verifiable sources. The links to the sources provided seems broken. The article mentions that the descendents of the family is the "Varghese family" which is a common surname among christians in Kerala. Several sources like C.Achutha Menon's Cochin state manual state that the last king of villarvattom(who was a kshatriya) had no legal heirs and was becoming extinct and instead of adopting a kshatriya member, he handed over the kingdom to his son, the Paliath achan with the sanction of the King of cochin in the year 1599. This states that the Paliath achan family were his descendents. No proper evidences to back up the article. The article mentions that the family themselves were Christian, but several sources mention only a single ruler of the Kshatriya family who converted to Christianity. The rest of the article seems like a self-spun story which tries to show the origin of a Christian royal family in Kerala. So, on account of having all such false claims and improper references, I think this article requires deletion. Pedia.01110 (talk) 06:36, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Also with regards to sources, many of them are from blogs, which are against the policies of Wikipedia. This link http://nasrani.net/2007/04/15/raja-thoma-villarvattam-king-of-the-nasranis/ andhttps://web.archive.org/web/20120301220721/http://cs.nyu.edu/kandathi/a_j_john.html are blogs. http://www.smcim.org/church/chendamangalam/article/93 and http://www.synodofdiamper.com/mal/index.php are also non-verifiable since they are merely the websites of churches. The first link,http://www.smcim.org/church/chendamangalam/article/93, clearly is broken and the second link merely provides vague facts without any evidence. This link https://books.google.com/books?id=j7VFEAAAQBAJ&pg=PA39 provided is from an author who contradicts with histories written by other authors in many ways. One such example is from the title, HH Goda varma the permanent king of Cochin, the author goes on to say the Goda Varma, a Hindu kshatriya, was the one who converted to Christianity. This point by itself is contradicted by another link provided in this article https://web.archive.org/web/20130824015059/http://www.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/mmonline.dll/portal/localContentView.do?district=Cochin&contentId=14805595&programId=1079897624&tabId=16&BV_ID=@@@ which states that Rama Varma Apattiri Koviladhikari was the last king. Furthermore, I think the case of including a novel about the villarvattom dynasty concludes that this whole narrative was built up from a purely spun up fantasy about a Christian royal family. There have however been many claims from others about the presence of a Christian king, but this could however be a single isolated case rather than what the article states. In this link https://web.archive.org/web/20130824015059/http://www.manoramaonline.com/cgi-bin/mmonline.dll/portal/localContentView.do?district=Cochin&contentId=14805595&programId=1079897624&tabId=16&BV_ID=@@@, it states that there is a probability that the villarvattom ruler could be a Christian king. Again, this is merely a vague evidence as to the presence of a Christian royal family in Kerala. Pedia.01110 (talk) 09:34, 27 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting as there has been no participation here so far. The nominator has said a lot, I encourage them to allow other editors to assess the arguments.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 05:07, 3 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • TNT - The subject of the article did exist, and he is discussed in scholarly sources about the Syro-Malabar Catholics. Source research is painful due to the overlap in name between the article's subject and the overall community (Mar Thoma Christians. Before getting into a discussion of WP:GNG, though, none of those sources support the text in this article (or at least not much of it). Without a way to sift the facts from the WP:OR and WP:ADVOCACY, there is nothing here to salvage for a merge. As an AtD, stripping to a true stub with something like, "Raja Thoma Villarvattom was a feudal monarch of Villarvattom, a vassal fiefdom of the Kingdom of Cochin," would work as well. Cheers, Last1in (talk) 14:08, 8 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Not eligible for Soft Deletion. Previous AFD was Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Villárvattam
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 05:06, 10 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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