Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Video Game

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. We are at a numerical delete, however when looking at weight and the discussion of tertiary sources, it appears Cunard's sources counter the assertions of it being a potential hoax, and it being longtime unsourced with no potential for coverage. That said, there is also no clear support for keeping the article. With no input after the relist, I don't see that another will bring about consensus. Star Mississippi 13:10, 15 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The Video Game

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Game show identified by TenPoundHammer (talk · contribs) and IJBall (talk · contribs) as failing WP:GNG at Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Television#The_Video_Game. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 01:12, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Television, Video games, and United States of America. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 01:12, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete – Article has been effectively unsourced (WP:Primary sources don't contribute to notability) since its creation in 2007. And I can't find anything in the Los Angeles Times about it from circa 1984, which is a very, very bad sign if you're looking for evidence that this got any (press/media) coverage at all. A minor game show, that aired only in first-run syndication, is exactly this kind of show we were thinking about when we crafted WP:NTVNATL – this show has received apparently no secondary coverage (let alone "significant" coverage!): therefore it fails both WP:GNG and WP:NTV. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 01:57, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete nothing to support WP:GNG was found. DonaldD23 talk to me 02:00, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: Either this was a hoax added in by a long-ago fan, or someone (or some station) surely has the tapes somewhere! (Footage or it never really aired. Although that title is mentioned in the broadcast details for Starcade, produced by the same company [JM]--and I'm having doubt this postscript trivia will persist on there for long...) --Slgrandson (How's my egg-throwing coleslaw?) 07:46, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
1. Encyclopedias and other books:
  1. Lu, Zhouxiang (2022). A History of Competitive Gaming. New York: Routledge. pp. 51–52. ISBN 978-0-367-55961-8. Retrieved 2023-07-01 – via Google Books.
    The book notes: "After Starcade was discontinued, JM Production produced The Video Game, which aired in syndication in North America between September 1984 and September 1985 and was filmed at Six Flags Magic Mountain amusement park in Valencia, California. Each episode started with a home video game competition between two players called down from the audience. The contestant who scored more points on a Commodore 64 game was invited onstage to play a random mini game, including a maze game and several video themed-quizzes, to win a prize. The show then continued with another two rounds, each featuring two audience members. The three winners then came back on stage to compete in a maze game for the final prize. As in Starcade, the winner then played a video arcade game for 30 seconds to beat a predetermined high score for the grand prize. Tim Crowley of California recalls his journey to The Video Game: ..."
  2. Schwartz, David; Ryan, Steve; Wostbrock, Fred (1995). "The Video Game". The Encyclopedia of TV Game Shows (2 ed.). New York: Facts on File. p. 216. ISBN 0-8160-3093-6. Retrieved 2023-07-01 – via Internet Archive.
    The book notes: "The Video Game premiere: September 1984; packager: JM Productions; broadcast history: Syndicated September 1984–1985; host: Greg Winfield; assistant: Karen Lea; announcer: Christopher Kriesa; producers: James Caruso, Mavis Arthur; director: James Caruso, Phil Martino; set designer: Tho. E. Azzari; origination: Six Flags Magic Mountain, Valencia, California. "The Video Game," usually seen on Saturday mornings, featured two contestants who competed in three rounds of playing video arcade games. The first player to reach a predetermined point score won the game and played for bonus prizes in the second half of the show by answering questions related to video game characters and by playing additional games."
  3. Terrace, Vincent (1985). Encyclopedia of Television: Series, Pilots and Specials 1974–1984. New York: BASEline. p. 434. ISBN 0-918432-61-8. Retrieved 2023-07-01 – via Internet Archive.
    The book notes: "The Video Game. Two contestants compete in three rounds. In the first half of each round the contestants play the same video arcade game. The player who first reaches the predetermined score wins and proceeds to the second half of the round. The format varies somewhat, but the object calls for the contestant to either answer questions concerning video arcade characters or play video games (and attempt to reach a certain score within a very limited amount of time). Video-oriented games are awarded as prizes." The book notes that the host is Greg Winfield, the assistant is Karen Lea, the executive producers are James Caruso and Mavis Arthur, the associate producer is Paul Martin, the director is James Caruso, and the announcer is Chris Creasis. The book notes the show is syndicated, is 30 minutes long, and aired 10/84."
  4. Terrace, Vincent (1991). Fifty Years of Television: A Guide to Series and Pilots, 1937–1988. New York: Rosemont Publishing & Printing. p. 768. ISBN 0-8453-4811-6. Retrieved 2023-07-01 – via Internet Archive.
    The book notes: "The Video Game. Game; 30 min; Syn. 10/84. Object: For contestants to play various video arcade games in return for prizes. Host: Greg Winfield. Assistant: Karen Lea. Announcer: Chris Creasis. Producer: James Caruso, Mavis Arthur."
  5. Lu, Zhouxiang (2023). "Esports". In Wolf, Mark J.P.; Perron, Bernard (eds.). The Routledge Companion to Video Game Studies (2 ed.). New York: Routledge. doi:10.4324/9781003214977-44. ISBN 978-1-032-08123-6. Retrieved 2023-07-01 – via Google Books.
    The book notes: "The popular TV Powww! (1978), the That's Incredible! Video Game Invitational (1983), video game TV shows Starcade (1982–84), and The Video Game (1984–85) not only introduced competitive gaming to a wider audience but also helped video games to achieve mainstream popularity."
2. Newspaper, magazine, and other articles:
  1. Mitchell, John (1984-09-14). "Newbury Park pair bring home TV game show loot". Thousand Oaks Star. Archived from the original on 2023-07-01. Retrieved 2023-07-01 – via Newspapers.com.
    The article notes: "Brad Krapff, 11, son of Sharon and Glen Krapff of Newbury Park and a fifth grader at Maple Elementary School, won $3,500 worth of prizes for coming out the champ on "The Video Game," a brand-new show. This game is from the producers of the successful "Starcade" and will debut at 9:30 a.m. Saturday over Channel 5. The show's contestant coordinator, Marie Shepard, told Brad's mother that he was the most enthusiastic of all the contestants on the 15 shows they've taped thus far, and because of this the show on which he appeared has been chosen to be the series' premiere telecast. In his performance, young Krapff defeated another contestant in a video baseball game and then outfoxed two others winners in a "playoff" competition. He garnered the program's "grand prize" by knocking off a high scorer — a person M.C. Greg Winfield brought on-stage especially to compete with him — in a game of Donkey Kong." The article says his prizes were "a new video game called Vulgus, a telescope, a remote controlled robot, a complete stereo system, $225 in game cartridges and a T-shirt".
  2. "Sun Line". The Jackson Sun. 1984-08-16. Archived from the original on 2023-07-01. Retrieved 2023-07-01 – via Newspapers.com.
    The article notes: "The rules will be different and you'd have to get to L.A. on your own, said the executive producer with J.M. Production Co., which also produces "Starcade." While "Starcade" includes more competition in the actual playing of electronic games, "The Video Game" will be more question- and- quiz-orient- ed. Prizes will include games, robots of various sizes, video cassette recorders and others. An advantage of the new show will be that you'd have to make only one trip. "Starcade" contestants must make one trip for the audition and another for the taping. "The Video Game" will be taped live at Magic Mountain at Six Flags in Valencia, Calif., ... Contestants will be chosen from the audience in a way similar to "The Price is Right" and there are no age limits. The show will air once a week from Sept. 15 to the end of the year. ..."
  3. "Syndication". Variety. Vol. 288, no. 41. 1985-09-23. p. 90. EBSCOhost 2587875477.
    The article notes: "The Video Game is a game show designed for teens that tests their knowledge of video games. Young celebrities join host Greg Winfield in doling out hi-tech prizes. From the Video Game Corp."
  4. Nedeff, Adam (2023-05-24). "A Donkey Kong Game Show? Starcade Provided Video Gaming Star Power". The Strong National Museum of Play. Archived from the original on 2023-07-01. Retrieved 2023-07-01.
    The article notes: "The Video Game (1984, syndication) Another JM Production that began production almost immediately after “Starcade” wrapped. Contestants competed in a game structured somewhat like “The Price is Right”: the contestants would battle head-to-head in an arcade game, with the best scorer advancing to play one of several mini-games"
There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow The Video Game to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".
Cunard (talk) 10:46, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Your first five sources are all WP:Tertiary sources which also do not contribute to notability.

I'm not sure either Thousand Oaks Star or The Jackson Sun could be considered "in-depth" coverage, but I guess they're something. I can't assess the Variety piece, but based on the article title I'm guessing it's just a passing mention. I definitely think The Strong National Museum of Play is not a good enough source... So, at best, that's two acceptable sources. I would still say this falls short of justifying a standalone article – I could see including a section on this show at Starcade, as per WP:NOPAGE however.

So I am still at delete, though I could see merging a little bit of the content to the article to Starcade, as per WP:NOPAGE, using the Thousand Oaks Star and The Jackson Sun to source it. --IJBall (contribs • talk) 14:30, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The mere existence of a tertiary source implies that there is a secondary source. –LaundryPizza03 (d c̄) 18:53, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I don't get that at all. For example, a book that "lists all Atari 2600 video games" ("tertiary source") does not guarantee that every one of those games would have gotten secondary coverage (esp. not "in-depth" coverage). --IJBall (contribs • talk) 22:18, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

WP:TERTIARY redirects to Wikipedia:No original research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources, which says, "Secondary or tertiary sources are needed to establish the topic's notability and avoid novel interpretations of primary sources."

The policy says that tertiary sources can be used to establish notability. Even if tertiary sources could not be used to establish notability, Lu 2022 is a secondary source, not a tertiary source, as it contains the author's synthesis of information from primary sources.

WP:NOPAGE says:

When creating new content about a notable topic, editors should consider how best to help readers understand it. Often, understanding is best achieved by presenting the topic on a dedicated standalone page, but it is not required that we do so; at times it is better to cover a notable topic as part of a larger page about a broader topic, with more context (and doing so in no way disparages the importance of the topic).

The Video Game is a completely different show from Starcade with different game rules, different histories, different hosts, different announcers, and different staff. It does not make sense to merge the two articles together when both are independently notable.

Cunard (talk) 23:53, 1 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Well, then I'm still at delete, if you're ruling out any merging of content. And, yes – I don't believe that tertiary sources can be used to establish notability, regardless of what that language implies (I chalk that up to being badly worded). An article that only had tertiary sources only would almost certainly fail at WP:AfD... As for Lu 2022, that qualifies as nothing more than a "passing mention". --IJBall (contribs • talk) 01:07, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline says, "There is no fixed number of sources required since sources vary in quality and depth of coverage, but multiple sources are generally expected." Wiktionary defines the word "multiple" as being "more than one". The two newspaper articles by themselves are sufficient for the television show to meet the notability guideline.

Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline further says: "'Significant coverage' addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention, but it does not need to be the main topic of the source material." Lu 2022 provides 151 words of coverage about the subject. This "addresses the topic directly and in detail, so that no original research is needed to extract the content", so the source qualifies as significant coverage.

The policy Wikipedia:No original research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources is not "badly worded" language. The policy is very clear that "tertiary sources" can be used to establish notability. If editors want to exclude tertiary sources from establishing notability, they need to get consensus to change the Wikipedia:No original research#Primary, secondary and tertiary sources policy.

That The Video Game has entries in multiple encyclopedias strongly contributes to the body of evidence establishing it is notable.

Cunard (talk) 04:14, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. User Cunard's sources are sufficient to establish notability, thereby preserving NPOV and Verifiability. If there's more discussion to be had over a merge versus a separate article, or whether certain sources count as tertiary or secondary, that can be done on the articles talk pages, but it does not amount to an argument for deletion. —siro χ o 10:19, 2 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Delete. No truly in-depth sources, only trivia and passing mentions. --SilverTiger12 (talk) 19:57, 3 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, CycloneYoris ^talk! 02:47, 8 July 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.