Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Maine

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Missvain (talk) 23:54, 12 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Maine[edit]

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There are no independent sources which cover the subject in detail and thus the subject fails WP:GNG. User:Namiba 14:54, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. User:Namiba 14:54, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Maine-related deletion discussions. User:Namiba 14:54, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 16:16, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Draftify There's a non trivial presence of the LDS Church in Maine, but the article does require more independent sources to meet GNG. The article is relatively new so an opportunity to find sources should be given. Qwaiiplayer (talk) 16:26, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
- Seeing the revisions made to improve the article and include more independent sources, I'm changing my vote to Keep Qwaiiplayer (talk) 04:48, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep When creating this page, my intent was to list information that is reliable as possible. I've included Pew Forum Survey data (reference 2) as well as well as Association of Religion Data Archives (ARDA) findings (reference 3) as well. These are all referenced in the header. If you know of others, let me know. I used LDS maps to locate wards/branches within stakes among other things. I could, for example, use Google maps, but that info is much less reliable. For example, Google places church locations where there is none and some church locations are not in Google. I used primary sources for information only the church knows (ie. membership & congregational data). churchofjesuschristtemples.org is not an official website, but specifies what stakes are in each Temple district. Again, I've stated content I've been able to find, and welcome others to add to it. I don't want to be the only contributer.

If you have additional content Be Bold. Also, feel free to contact me if you have suggestions. I'm open for suggestions.Dmm1169 (talk) 18:57, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Also note a similar conversation about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Maine has already occured on Caorongjin's user page which resulted in the removal of the {{primary sources}} tag that user place on it. Those actions are shown on the "view history" tab of the The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Maine. The disadvantage of placing it in "Draft" space is that it significanlty limits individuals that can potentially contribute to the page. The input that came into creating this was developed through input placed on other similar pages "The Church of Jesus Crist of Latter-day Saints in ...(state/country)" and "Religion in ...(state/country)" The sources, format, and text are similar to what was provided in those other pages.Dmm1169 (talk) 20:54, 5 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is an encyclopedia and thus relies primarily upon secondary research. If there are multiple, independent, secondary sources (as required by the General Notability Guideline) please post them. Otherwise, primary sources are not enough to justify an article like this.--User:Namiba 17:25, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The item directly comming from primary sources (LDS Church website) in this page is the infobox. Are you wanting me to remove it? Without it, the page is not primarily from primary sources. The majority of sentences/paragraphs in page are not from primary sources. All paragraps in header and Temple Section were not retrieved/interperatated from an offical church website. The Stake & Mission section came from interperation of a primary source map done by physically counting congregations.Dmm1169 (talk) 19:45, 6 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've sourced the infobox to another Wikipedia page with the same data. The only source left to an LDS webpage is "Classic Maps".Dmm1169 (talk) 20:46, 6 May 2021 (UTC) Let me know if that's sufficient and if not, what needs to be done to resolve it. For example, does primary sourced content need to be removed and what sources are you considering primary sourced material and why? Origionally you stated there was "no independent sources" which really confused me because some of the sources are not even close to affiliation with the LDS Church. "A primary source may be used on Wikipedia only to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge." The intent of use of primary sources was for this purpose. I just want to get this resolved in accordance to Wikipedia Standards.Dmm1169 (talk) 05:13, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Dmm1169, I think the issue here is that you are misunderstanding the definition of primary and secondary sources. A primary source is "an artifact, document, diary, manuscript, autobiography, recording, or any other source of information that was created at the time under study." A secondary source is one which utilizes primary sources to create a new perspective or argument. A primary source can be published by an organization (like the Church of LDS itself) or by another organization or individual. It is fine to use primary sources to document certain facts on Wikipedia, but notability is determined by the existence of secondary sources. The problem with this article is that no one has written extensively about the LDS in Maine and thus there are not a sufficient number of sources described in WP:GNG to justify its existence.--User:Namiba 12:01, 7 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Namiba, Good news!!! There are several published secondary sources concerning The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints in Maine. There's probably others, but two I can think of right off is cummorah.com which its data is about a year older than what the church puts out essentially all the information in the infobox plus some and historical information as well. There's also the Deseret News Church Almanac which goes in much more detail including nearly two pages, small font single space typed history of the LDS Church in Maine as well as 2012 Membership, stake & congregational information, and list of stakes, date each stake was organized, the first stake president for each stake among other information. The Deseret News Church Almanac ran from 1974 to 2012. I've got a copy of the 2012 Almanac which has membership and stake data for 2011. There's probably other sources. Of course then there is a number of local news articles concerning certain topics of the LDS Church within Maine such as For Mormons on a mission, Maine’s a challenge, Church Announces New Leaders, 75,000 lbs. of food to be distributed..., ...Dmm1169 (talk) 02:13, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Since nomination for deletion, the following has been changed to page

adjusted an existing reference
added more referencing
Added a "History" Section
added a couple of additional links pertaining specifically to LDS Church in Maine in "External Links" section
Added section-stub template to "History" section to encourage others to edit and improve the page in accordance to Wikipedia Standards.

Dmm1169 (talk) 04:27, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Delete- Just not a notable topic. There seems to be roughly 10,000 Mormons in Maine. No sourcing discusses this as a topic other than on the church's website which really doesn't have much information [1].--Rusf10 (talk) 05:05, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Rusf10 I'm not sure if you looked at the page before or after the edits I mentioned above were made, and totally independent sources concerning population aspects of the LDS Church was present when the nomination for deletion tag was placed. Totally independant, secondary sources includes, but are not limited to, Pew Forum on Religion which stated 2% identify themselves as LDS Church, The Association of Religion Data Archives which lists it as the 6th largest denomination, as well as new sources and content that was added. These sources all relate the the LDS Church in Maine. Religion can easily be a contraversal topic yet there are thousands of Religion/denomination/irriligion in Country/Region/Territory/etc pages in Wikipedia.Dmm1169 (talk) 07:35, 8 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Keep as per WP:HEY as the article has been improved with additional reliable sources references that show a pass of WP:GNG so that deletion is unnecessary in my view, Atlantic306 (talk) 00:19, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Keep There are enough sources to show notability.John Pack Lambert (talk) 15:10, 10 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.