Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Tarek Nour Communications

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. – Joe (talk) 14:01, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Tarek Nour Communications[edit]

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Tarek Nour Communications (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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Not notable. Don't meet WP:INDEPENDENT, WP:MULTSOURCES and WP:CORPDEPTH Asketbouncer (talk) 05:26, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Egypt-related deletion discussions. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 07:02, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Advertising-related deletion discussions. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 07:03, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Companies-related deletion discussions. Eastmain (talk • contribs) 07:03, 31 August 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, ✗plicit 06:47, 7 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The appropriate guideline is WP:NCORP. Eastmain above points to the book "Entrepreneurship in Africa" which has about 3/4 page dedicated primarily to the founder but also describes the topic company but doesn't provide any detail (fails WP:CORPDEPTH). This is the only reference that comes close to meeting the criteria for establishing notability as the others focus either on the "adverts" produced by the company (without providing info on the company itself) or are based entirely on company announcements (fails WP:ORGIND). Topic fails NCORP. HighKing++ 20:43, 13 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

*Delete Per HighKing.4meter4 (talk) 06:17, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete, per nom, for failing WP:CORPDEPTH. Ifnord (talk) 18:56, 15 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per the significant coverage in multiple independent reliable sources.
    1. Shechter, Relli (December 2008). "Glocal Mediators: Marketing in Egypt during the Open-Door Era (infitah)". Enterprise & Society. 9 (4). Cambridge University Press. JSTOR 23701324. Retrieved 2021-09-19.

      The article notes: "The case studies I discuss, RadaResearch and Americana, were two of the most successful enterprises of their period. ... Americana offered "intuitive," "local knowledge" in leverag ing indigenous culture to promote global goods. ... Tarek Nour, who later established Americana, one of the first, and the most successful advertising agencies of the period, was a member of The Mass. ... Nour's socioeconomic and cultural background, and the title of the agency he established, may lead the reader to think that Americana spearheaded Western-cloned advertising, to sell imported commodi ties in Egypt. This, however, was not the case, and Tarek Nour became a strong advocate of culture-specific advertising ... While promoting local-style advertising, the agencies, especially Americana, pushed locally conceived modern/Western advertise ments. Americana and others significantly renovated the content of ads and set new standards (conventions) for publicity in Egypt. This, again, demonstrated their double-sided, mediation—going local for outsiders, advancing international (indigenously meant modern) lifestyle through advertising within. In both capacities private-sector enterprises strengthened their hold on the business."

    2. Fick, David S. (2002). Entrepreneurship in Africa: A Study of Success. Westport, Connecticut: Quorum Books. p. 254. ISBN 1-56720-536-4. Retrieved 2021-09-19.

      The book provides 317 words of coverage about the subject.

      The book notes: "When Tarek Nour started the first private Egyptian advertising agency in 1979, he realized that, in order to achieve results for his clients, whether international or local Egyptian, he had to communicate a message that was culturally significant, that would be understood by the local population. Communication has always been the theme and the driving force behind what Tarek Nour Communications (TNC) Group aspires to achieve. It is based on an understanding of the culture, the tastes, and the psyche of the Egyptian people. Art and science are merely the tools with which the message is delivered. Unless one is speaking the people’s language, no amount of scientific or artistic excellence will communicate a real message to the real people, or, ultimately, achieve real results. The TNC Group includes the following: ...

    3. Ayoub-Geday, Paul; McClure, Mandy (2002). Egypt Almanac. Wilmington, Delaware: Egypto-file. p. 241. ISBN 9789775893024. Retrieved 2021-09-19.

      The Google Snippets view notes: "Tarek Nour's TN Communications has been a mainstay in the market for over 20 years, and continues to hold many of the biggest accounts in town. The firm made headlines in December 2001 when they dumped MobiNil and joined forces with Click Vodafone, claiming that MobiNil had breached contract by subcontracting Echo Media for some projects. Other sources state that the fault was with Nour himself , who had reportedly inflamed MobiNil by approaching Click Vodafone on the media buying front."

    4. Passing mentions that explain why the company is significant :
      1. Shadid, Anthony (1997-06-26). "Fat has become the fad in Cairo's world of fashion and film". Associated Press. Archived from the original on 2021-09-19. Retrieved 2021-09-19.

        The article notes: "Tarek Nour, who heads Americana Advertising, Egypt’s largest private ad agency,"

      2. Keenan, Kevin L. (2002). McDonough, John; Egolf, Karen (eds.). The Advertising Age Encyclopedia of Advertising. Chicago: Fitzroy Dearborn Publishers. p. 21. ISBN 1-57958-172-2. Retrieved 2021-09-19.

        The book notes: "Private agencies in Egypt include Tarek Nour Communications, founded in 1979 as Americana Advertising and the largest of about a dozen indigenous agencies."

      3. Hammond, Andrew (2005). Pop Culture Arab World!: Media, Arts, and Lifestyle. Santa Barbara, California: ABC-Clio. p. 267. ISBN 1-85109-449-0. Retrieved 2021-09-19.

        The book notes: "In Egypt during Ramadan, the viewer will see ad-industry guru Tarek Nour, whose Americana has dominated the sector for three decades, selling TVs, fridges, mobile phones, luxury flats, and fizzy drinks, plus asking viewers to donate money to kids with cancer, all within the space of ten minutes."

      4. Murphy, John (1986-02-27). "Firm Established To Foster Trade Between U.S. and Middle East". The Scranton Times-Tribune. Retrieved 2021-09-19 – via Newspapers.com.

        The article notes: "Tarek Nour, president of Americana, the largest advertising and marketing agency in the Middle East".

      5. El Said, Maha (2013). "Alternating Images: Simulacra of Ideology in Egyptian Advertisements". In El Hamamsy, Walid; Soliman, Mounira (eds.). Popular Culture in the Middle East and North Africa: A Postcolonial Outlook. New York: Routledge. p. 217. ISBN 978-0-415-50972-5. Retrieved 2021-09-19.

        The book notes: "It is thus no surprise that the first commercial, privately owned advertisement company in Egypt, established in 1978, was called Americana."

    There is sufficient coverage in reliable sources to allow Tarek Nour Communications to pass Wikipedia:Notability#General notability guideline, which requires "significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject".

    Cunard (talk) 10:55, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • From Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)#No inherent notability, "When evaluating the notability of organizations or products, please consider whether they have had any significant or demonstrable effects on culture, society, entertainment, athletics, economies, history, literature, science, or education."

    A company that is among "two of the most successful enterprises of the period" has had a significant impact on society.

    A company that is "the largest advertising and marketing agency in the Middle East" has had a significant impact on society.

    A company that has "dominated the sector for three decades" has had a significant impact on society.

    I have searched for only English-language sources but there very likely will be Arabic-language sources covering Tarek Nour Communications in detail given its significant impact on Egyptian society.

    Cunard (talk) 10:55, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Very easy to make it look like an organization meets our guidelines when you explicitly use GNG as opposed to WP:NCORP just in order to be able to ignore the WP:ORGIND requirement for "Independent Content". HighKing++ 21:46, 19 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • I may be wrong but you saying there's "enough independent reporting and analysis in the source" implies combining bits and pieces from several references to met the criteria. WP:SIRS makes it clear that *each* reference must meet NCORP and not a single reference does. Here's why:
  • The "Glocal Mediators" reference is about the person, Tarek Nour, with passing mentions for the company. There is no in-depth information provided on this topic company whatsoever.
  • The author, David S. Fick in "Entrepeneurship in Africa" provides a very specific disclaimer at the start of the books where he says I have tried not to color someone else’s inspirations, ideas, or plans with my views of how the world should be. Wherever possible, I have endeavored to use the exact words of my sources in presenting or summarizing their ideas. When I mention a source, it is their ideas and words that I present. I do not claim credit for their ideas, only the blame if I have not adequately presented their ideas. Clearly therefore, none of the content includes original and independent opinion, analysis, investigation, and fact checking that are clearly attributable to a source unaffiliated to the subject and therefore fails WP:ORGIND
  • The "Egypt Almanac" reference from 2002 includes an article on advertisers in Egypt. Your "snippet" view from Google books pretty much captures the relevant paragraph and while it says very nice things about the company and discusses one incident in particular from December 2001, it doesn't provide any in-depth information on the topic company, failing CORPDEPTH.
  • At point 4, you say "Passing mentions that explain why the company is significant" but according to the WP:SIRS section of the guidelines, each reference must meet all the criteria for establishing notabaility, you don't mix and match.
If the topic company was notable then it is reasonable to expect the existence of the minimum number of references that meet NCORP but those ones don't. I would also add that the person, Tarek Nour, would likely meet the WP:BIO criteria for an article with him as the topic. HighKing++ 15:55, 20 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • My assessment is that every source I have listed (aside from the "passing mentions" list) meets WP:SIRS in each providing significant coverage in independent reliable sources about Tarek Nour Communications. I quoted material from each source showing that each source provides significant independent coverage about the subject. David S. Fick does not quote from or cite any person or source related to the subject so he is not a non-independent source.

    From Wikipedia:Notability (organizations and companies)#No inherent notability, "When evaluating the notability of organizations or products, please consider whether they have had any significant or demonstrable effects on culture, society, entertainment, athletics, economies, history, literature, science, or education." A company that is or was "the largest advertising and marketing agency in the Middle East" and "dominated the sector for three decades" clearly has had "demonstrable effects on culture [and] society" and meets WP:NCORP. Cunard (talk) 08:40, 27 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Should have been relisted earlier.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Peter303x (talk) 01:31, 21 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep per Cunard.4meter4 (talk) 15:31, 28 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep there is significant coverage per Cunard. Webmaster862 (talk) 07:27, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep. I struck the nominator as they are a sock (nominating with the same three uppercase Wikipedia buzzwords several articles). I concur that the sources Cunard brought up above demonstrate the significance of this company (first private ad agency in Egypt) and show coverage. I would also assume further coverage exists in Arabic.--Eostrix  (🦉 hoot hoot🦉) 09:45, 29 September 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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