Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Synagogue shooting

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep & Rename to List of synagogue shootings. I'm going to strip out the WP:DAB boilerplate. There's clear consensus that this should continue to exist in some form, even if there's not a clear consensus on exactly what that form is. The rename looks like it's the most popular option, so that's what I'm going to do. People can continue to discuss other possible names and/or reorganizations on the list talk page. -- RoySmith (talk) 15:26, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Synagogue shooting[edit]

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Synagogue shooting (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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"Synagogue shooting" is neither a valid topic for an article nor a valid disambiguation page. Bus stop (talk) 13:48, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Disambiguations-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 14:32, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU(T) 14:32, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, but rename to List of synagogue shooting (or perhaps - a more widely scoped attacks). Meets WP:CSC. Icewhiz (talk) 14:46, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • list of synagogue shootings (should be plural) would be fine, or could be directed to a more widely scoped name that would include the 2 non-synagogues, but I don't know how to phrase that. What noun enscapsulates synagogues and community centers? "Jewish places of worship"? Ash Carol (talk) 19:13, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
      • Yes, shootings, plural. I personally would support a rescope to List of attacks at Jewish community buildings (to catch community centers, yeshivas, and other Jewish community buildings that are not synagogues, as well as widen from just shootings) - but that's really an article discussion and not an AfD discussion). Icewhiz (talk) 09:46, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
        • I agree that "List of attacks at Jewish community buildings" would be a good title. Bus stop (talk) 13:09, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Changed to Keep per WP:NOTDUP, thank you. "Synagogue shooting" is a phrase used around the world since the Pittsburgh shooting, and I can find coverage of incidents using this term going back to 1981. (Sorry - attempts to strike my first vote and rationale through end up striking through the whole rest of the page!) RebeccaGreen (talk) 06:51, 13 November 2018 (UTC) I was going to say Keep as a List of synagogue shootings - but then there should also be Lists of Church Shootings, Mosque Shootings, and Temple Shootings not to mention Synagogue, Church, Mosque and Temple bombings. Then I discovered there is already a Category:Massacres in places of worship, which would bring up all shooting mass murders in synagogues tagged with that category. RebeccaGreen (talk) 15:27, 11 November 2018 (UTC) Category:Massacres in places of worship.[reply]
  • @RebeccaGreen:, per WP:NOTDUP - the existence of a category is not duplicative with a list - this guideline specifically says that "arguing that a category duplicates a list (or vice versa) at a deletion discussion is not a valid reason for deletion and should be avoided.". Icewhiz (talk) 15:35, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
    • Feel free to make those other lists. Categories simply alphabetize, they cannot provide useful information like the years they happened like disambiguation pages or lists can. Ash Carol (talk) 19:11, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep, I created the disambiguation. Ash Carol (talk) 19:15, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep but convert to a List of synagogue shootings.E.M.Gregory (talk) 23:56, 11 November 2018 (UTC) On closer examination, I think delete. Fact is that the phrase "synagogue shooting" has not been sufficiently applied to other incidents to make a disambig necessary.E.M.Gregory (talk) 20:24, 12 November 2018 (UTC). Withdraw.E.M.Gregory (talk) 15:41, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete as nominator. "Synagogue shooting" does not constitute a valid article topic. The article presently has no sources supporting the existence of that topic. Just because an editor makes up a fictitious scope for an article does not mean that topic is valid for an article. In fact this so-called article is not even about its topic area suggested in its title. The article says nothing about synagogue shootings. Nothing—not an iota. We don't just concoct articles to suit our fancy. You can know this is gibberish because you can ask yourself—what is a synagogue shooting? The answer is that it is the mere putting together of a "shooting" with a "synagogue". The title of this article implies the simplistic joining of two obvious factors. No sources are in the article addressing or supporting the simplistic joining of "shooting" with "synagogue". Nor are there any sentences in the article addressing this made up subject. An article has to make assertions. No assertions are made in this article. Bus stop (talk) 13:52, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • And yet it would be simple to make it into a list, and more than one editor has proposed doing so.E.M.Gregory (talk) 19:24, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Yoninah (talk) 21:18, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Rename to List of synagogue shootings, which is what it is. Debresser (talk) 22:27, 12 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete Keep only if it is converted to a standalone list. It appears that Ash Carol didn't understand what they created. As it stands ("Synagogue shooting"), it doesn't qualify as a disambiguation based on the way it's being implemented, and it's obviously not a notable subject. But unless someone can convince me otherwise, I don't see why it shouldn't simply be a standalone list and be renamed List of synagogue shootings (plural). Also, if you want widen the scope for it to include all synagogues and other organized Jewish places (JCCs, Jewish schools, etc.), then rename it to something that encompasses all of them. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:3059:8016:5847:3E43 (talk) 04:27, 13 November 2018 (UTC) 13:56, 13 November 2018 (UTC) Withdrawn. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:3059:8016:5847:3E43 (talk) 19:12, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep as list, renaming appropriately. PamD 14:50, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Why not just delete it? What is so difficult? It isn't anything. It isn't a disambiguation page. It isn't a list. And it isn't a regular article, meaning an article that is not a list. It contains no sources. It contains no sentences. It makes no assertions. After it is deleted a list can be created called "List of synagogue attacks" or "List of attacks on Jewish institutions". Bus stop (talk) 19:43, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Per WP:ATD, we generally prefer alternatives to deletion when they are available. Conversion of this list like article to a list only requires a rename.Icewhiz (talk) 20:33, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Is anybody interested in this entity? There are only 7 articles linked-to in this pseudo-list. It is not as if a lot of work went into this entity. If anybody is interested in this hodgepodge of a page, just make a note of the 7 articles that are in it. And create something new from scratch. Yes, "we generally prefer alternatives to deletion", but I think that refers to an article that has undergone a more full development than this. We also have another essay that says blow it up and start over. (Different philosophies.) If I were interested in this article, I would be enthusiastic about starting over and doing it right the next time. These are only electrons. No trees need to be cut down. Sheesh. Bus stop (talk) 20:52, 13 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
And title the list what? Bus stop (talk) 06:44, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Calthinus said "per Icewhiz and Coffman" (List of synagogue shootings). Are you absolutely opposed to that option? If so, I'd like to know why because I agree with them. Am I missing something that should disqualify it from being converted to a list? 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:3059:8016:5847:3E43 (talk) 15:18, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, as the IP also stated, I said per Icewhiz and Coffman. Right above, you see Coffman saying List of synagogue shootings. I'm clumsy and miss things like this too sometimes, it's cool :). --Calthinus (talk) 15:58, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for confirming my interpretation of what you said. On an unrelated note... you may be "clumsy", but I see you've been editing since 2006 and have never been blocked. That's very impressive. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:3059:8016:5847:3E43 (talk) 16:12, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Hey, thanks :)! Though probably it would be better if that was not impressive haha, it would be nice if people would get along and didn't have to be blocked. --Calthinus (talk) 16:19, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
"Are you absolutely opposed to that option? If so, I'd like to know why because I agree with them. Am I missing something...? I think we should keep it broad such as "List of attacks on Jewish institutions" or "List of attacks at Jewish community buildings". A broader scope makes it more useful for the reader. These are related institutions and related means of attack. A "shooting" at a Jewish house of worship clearly is of similar significance as a "firebombing" at a Jewish community center. Bus stop (talk) 16:22, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Bus stop this is a good idea, actually. I missed it above. I support List of attacks on Jewish community buildings. --Calthinus (talk) 16:26, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Makes a good deal of sense. Category:21st-century attacks on synagogues and Jewish communal organizations in the United States is a good place to start. However, given the number of incidents in the presumably incomplete categories Category:20th-century attacks on synagogues and Jewish communal organizations and Category:21st-century attacks on synagogues and Jewish communal organizations, we may want want to narrow this to List of attacks at Jewish community buildings in the United States. Leaving all of the incidents in the vast and incomplete Category:Antisemitic attacks and incidents out of this particular list.E.M.Gregory (talk) 16:48, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes, narrowing it geographically makes sense. "List of attacks at Jewish community buildings in the United States" makes sense to me. Bus stop (talk) 17:09, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • No one would think of looking for a synagogue under "Jewish community buildings". Yoninah (talk) 19:00, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • I totally agree with Yoninah; the term "Jewish community buildings" is a bad fit. It's awkward terminology when used to refer to synagogues and even Jewish schools. What's most problematic is that "Jewish community building" would certainly be confused with Jewish Community Center, causing readers to wonder if it's solely about attacks at JCCs. They just sound way too much alike. 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:3059:8016:5847:3E43 (talk) 19:22, 14 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Thank you. Yes, as I said in my !vote, I would fully support "List of attacks at Jewish institutions in the United States". The only difference is I have "at" and you changed to "on". 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:3059:8016:5847:3E43 (talk) 04:26, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
OK, so it looks like we are making progress and yes, you said it first with only the relatively minor distinction between the word "on" and the word "at". So in recapitulation we have:
"List of attacks on Jewish institutions in the United States"
"List of attacks at Jewish institutions in the United States"
I'm OK with either one. Bus stop (talk) 14:38, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
I'm fine with whatever everyone decides. Maybe if we look at a few existing articles, it will help us to determine if "on" or "at" is better. For example, with the Pittsburgh synagogue shooting, would you say it was an attack on Tree of Life synagogue or an attack at Tree of Life synagogue? Or, with Los Angeles Jewish Community Center shooting, was it an attack on the LA JCC or an attack at the LA JCC? Which one feels more right and seems to make more sense when you say it? 2605:A000:FFC0:D8:3059:8016:5847:3E43 (talk) 15:52, 15 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Piotrus—would you support keeping this page as "List of attacks on/at Jewish institutions in the United States"? Bus stop (talk) 14:44, 16 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Yes. --Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here 04:34, 19 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • A good title might be "List of attacks on Jewish institutions in the United States post World War II". Bus stop (talk) 17:30, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
  • Anything but a relist is my vote! Szzuk (talk) 19:00, 18 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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