Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Symkaria
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was no consensus. No prejudice towards a merge discussion. Mark Arsten (talk) 19:20, 23 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Symkaria[edit]
- Symkaria (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Contested prod. Non-notable fictional country. No substantial coverage in reliable independent sources. There is no way to flesh the article out further then an in universe stub because there is no information to give it real world context or cover it's development and creation history. Ridernyc (talk) 00:24, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. I would say this article is obscure, but notable. See Wikipedia:Obscure does not mean not notable. When I reviewed the sources, it appears some sources are from the intellectual property owner, but some are from third-parties. This is subject that is probably only of interest to a small group, but still of encyclopedic interest. I didn't create the article, but found it useful and have tried to add to it. 42of8 (talk) 03:21, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Please show us the link to significant coverage in independent reliable sources. Ridernyc (talk) 04:30, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- A significant coverage in an independent reliable source that I've found is in Peter Sanderson's The Marvel Comics Guide to New York City, published by Simon & Schuster (not Marvel), which has an article on the subject. It's a book, so you'll have to check it out from a library. I haven't found a lot on the internet but I'm having more success in looking at books. Some of the books are debatable if they count as primary or secondary sources, such as the Marvel Atlas which isn't written by the creators or any story writers but is published by Marvel. Also, it looks as though Symkaria might appear in other media besides the comics. Looking for sources related to that. I'm not arguing that the article needs a lot of work, but it seems to me that there is more that can be added on the subject. Of interest to me is the different Easter European stereotypes that the writers use in depicting different versions of Symkaria. I feel a discussion on the articles talk page about specific needs of the article would be more helpful than simply nominating it for deletion. 42of8 (talk) 20:02, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- So to be clear you found one source that no one can see. So really even if we take your word that this source has signifigant coverage of the development and other real world context we still have a total of one source. all the rest is just your own assertion that if we talked we could maybe make up some original research to inject into this article about a non-notable fictional location that has no sources to back up anything we might be able to add. Really you are just saying WP:ILIKEIT and WP:ITSUSEFUL and trying to find any shred of anything that might make it look like it is notable and not trivia. Ridernyc (talk) 19:49, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Per Wikipedia policy, offline sources must be considered and must be taken on good faith WP:OSO. There is no requirement that sources be online. And people can see sources offline, it's not that hard. In my reasoning that this is notable, is that 1. comic book researchers talk about it. 2. It's been around for over twenty years and is still being used. These two criteria imply there are sources although they are apparently difficult to find. A lot of fictional countries in comic books don't meet those criteria like Draburg or Ksavia. Also, I looked at other articles on fictional elements in comic books to see what sort of research was done. Per WP:FICTIONPLOT, primary sources can be used for fictional works within reason. So with that in mind, there is certainly room for expansion. If this were really not notable, I would think you could only find this country mentioned in one or two lesser comic books series. There are plenty of fictional countries in comic books that are just footnotes. But Symkaria has endured and has been included in popular comic book series year after year. It's important enough that Marvel is willing to feature it when talking about their own fictional countries. The problems with this article are surmountable. If feel your arguments are simply WP:IDONTLIKEIT, WP:BELONG, and WP:JUSTNOTNOTABLE. And compiling what other researchers have already said or posting summaries from primary sources is not original research. There are plenty of things I could say about this topic that I've learned from my research that would not be appropriate; like how Symkaria seems to be reflective of a pre-communist Russia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 42of8 (talk • contribs) 21:15, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes and none of that changes the fact that you have found ONE source. Ridernyc (talk) 02:00, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Please explain why you have a problem with the sources in the article. If there is one source, it is logical to assume there are others. It is not logical to assume there are no other sources because you did a google search and didn't like what you found. 42of8 (talk) 02:45, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Yes and none of that changes the fact that you have found ONE source. Ridernyc (talk) 02:00, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Per Wikipedia policy, offline sources must be considered and must be taken on good faith WP:OSO. There is no requirement that sources be online. And people can see sources offline, it's not that hard. In my reasoning that this is notable, is that 1. comic book researchers talk about it. 2. It's been around for over twenty years and is still being used. These two criteria imply there are sources although they are apparently difficult to find. A lot of fictional countries in comic books don't meet those criteria like Draburg or Ksavia. Also, I looked at other articles on fictional elements in comic books to see what sort of research was done. Per WP:FICTIONPLOT, primary sources can be used for fictional works within reason. So with that in mind, there is certainly room for expansion. If this were really not notable, I would think you could only find this country mentioned in one or two lesser comic books series. There are plenty of fictional countries in comic books that are just footnotes. But Symkaria has endured and has been included in popular comic book series year after year. It's important enough that Marvel is willing to feature it when talking about their own fictional countries. The problems with this article are surmountable. If feel your arguments are simply WP:IDONTLIKEIT, WP:BELONG, and WP:JUSTNOTNOTABLE. And compiling what other researchers have already said or posting summaries from primary sources is not original research. There are plenty of things I could say about this topic that I've learned from my research that would not be appropriate; like how Symkaria seems to be reflective of a pre-communist Russia. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 42of8 (talk • contribs) 21:15, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- So to be clear you found one source that no one can see. So really even if we take your word that this source has signifigant coverage of the development and other real world context we still have a total of one source. all the rest is just your own assertion that if we talked we could maybe make up some original research to inject into this article about a non-notable fictional location that has no sources to back up anything we might be able to add. Really you are just saying WP:ILIKEIT and WP:ITSUSEFUL and trying to find any shred of anything that might make it look like it is notable and not trivia. Ridernyc (talk) 19:49, 7 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- A significant coverage in an independent reliable source that I've found is in Peter Sanderson's The Marvel Comics Guide to New York City, published by Simon & Schuster (not Marvel), which has an article on the subject. It's a book, so you'll have to check it out from a library. I haven't found a lot on the internet but I'm having more success in looking at books. Some of the books are debatable if they count as primary or secondary sources, such as the Marvel Atlas which isn't written by the creators or any story writers but is published by Marvel. Also, it looks as though Symkaria might appear in other media besides the comics. Looking for sources related to that. I'm not arguing that the article needs a lot of work, but it seems to me that there is more that can be added on the subject. Of interest to me is the different Easter European stereotypes that the writers use in depicting different versions of Symkaria. I feel a discussion on the articles talk page about specific needs of the article would be more helpful than simply nominating it for deletion. 42of8 (talk) 20:02, 3 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Please show us the link to significant coverage in independent reliable sources. Ridernyc (talk) 04:30, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 02:35, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. Northamerica1000(talk) 02:35, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete, as in-universe trivia. It has a page on the Marvel Comics wikia, and that's sufficient. bobrayner (talk) 13:15, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete, per Bobrayner's rationale. 23 editor (talk) 21:05, 1 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, —Tom Morris (talk) 12:13, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. Besides the primary source provided by the author, the article itself provides many Marvel books where Symkaria is mentioned and mostly elaborated, starting in 1985 and continuing until today. These books provide many details about the country: a map, locations within it, a portray of its people, foreign relations and more. It's much more than a footnote, and thus notable. -- Gabi S. (talk) 13:49, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Sorry looking over the list of sources I fail to see the sources you are referring to. I see a ton of wikis, a blog post, the comics themselves, one or two books published by Marvel and a total one book published by an independent source. Can you be more clear on exactly where you are seeing these sources that have in depth coverage that would add real world context to this article? Ridernyc (talk) 16:18, 8 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep or merge into Features of the Marvel Universe. BOZ (talk) 15:10, 9 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
- Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, | Uncle Milty | talk | 12:04, 15 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Merge into Features of the Marvel Universe. This topic lacks significant, independent coverage and notability. Features was kept in part so that semi-notable fictional locations such as this could have a place to be merged. Although I think merging is the right action, I would support deletion as a fallback. NinjaRobotPirate (talk) 06:18, 16 September 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.