Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sweden-bashing

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Opinions are divided, and there are valid arguments on both sides: "it has coverage" vs. "the content is very poor and needs a total rewrite". If that rewrite does not happen, a renomination remains possible.  Sandstein  15:18, 2 March 2017 (UTC)

Sweden-bashing

Sweden-bashing (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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This is a non notable topic taking recent events to prove a point. Article is full of OR and SYNTH. Sir Joseph ^(talk) 15:32, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 15:38, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sweden-related deletion discussions. Shawn in Montreal (talk) 15:38, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

• Strong keep as this is a theme that runs trough US politics since at least WW2. It is supported by multiple sources including academic papers. // Liftarn (talk) 15:43, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
• Delete, not notable enough for inclusion in the encyclopaedia, can be mentioned in another existing article. Φεμδποεηβψδ εμδοδφψη (talk) 17:21, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
• Strong keep in agreement with arguments by Liftarn (talk. Sweden-bashing and Last Night in Sweden, two articles that Sir Joseph (talk) wants deleted, can be used to put forth diverging truth claims as part of the post-fact, fake news conversation. They can be expanded with numerous reliable sources from academia, as well as news media, etc, and interlinked to other related articles, No, we’re not in a post-fact world. On Wikipedia, facts matter Wikipedia Handles Fake News With Humans, Not Algorithms I disagree with Sir Joseph (talk) that this article should be deleted same reason as he is calling for the deletion of Last Night in Sweden. Oceanflynn (talk) 17:41, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
• Keep as a relatively significant phenomenon, which has been expanded since this nomination. Article is also well-sourced, and is no different from any other anti-national sentiments. Keiiri (talk) 18:17, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
• Delete, at minimum needs total rewrite

I was a little troubled on seeing this inserted as a See Also to an article linking the Sweden riots to Trump's comments and not entirely surprised to see the article was written in the last 24 hours.

I rewrote a draft and substantially expanding the article with careful attention to tone, editorial voice, and attribution, but the process of doing that seems to have shown that this is a new idea related largely to a Swedish government PR campaign, a paper issuing from that PR campaign, and a few editorials and op-eds. Two apparent citations to scholarly books are actually just reprints of a New York Times Magazine article by Paul Krugman. A history and political science professor named Carl Markund seems to be the leading proponent of the view, having coined the term himself in a paper in what appears to be a sociology or cultural anthropology journal. There is also one Henrik Selin, a Swedish bureaucrat who seems to be in charge of spreading this message.

There are a couple of actual (alleged) historical instances of the phenomenon referenced by these spokesmen—Eisenhower pointing to supposedly lax Swedes to attack JFK while campaigning for President, and a Swedish author's complaints about Swedish taxes gaining audience in the New York Times, with an actual impact on Swedish the tax policy of that era reported in her LA Times obituary, and links to a supposedly stunning political defeat of a leftist Swede party as a result of the ensuing tax debate, although it's not clear whether the American attention to the debate played a role in the political outcome.

There is also evidence cited by one of the proponents that the Swedish government disagreed with some international commentary about Swedish economic and social policy going back to the 1980s. However I'm not sure the sources so far establish this as a distinct and noteworthy phenomenon beyond the aforementioned recent op-eds and PR campaign.

When I think "bashing" the first thing I think of is gay bashing and that's a very well-known idea. Similarly in terms of allegedly unfair portrayals of one country by another, naturally I think of Anti-Americanism, Anglophobia and Francophobia, but I think those concepts are inarguably far better established than what we've seen so far at this article. So I'm sort of on the fence about this but it seems a bit dubious.

I've attached my draft which has much better prose and reference formatting and may aid the discussion. Note, User:Oceanflynn comments extensively about supposed implications of this article but I'm not sure what to make of any of it and I don't think I see sources presented. Centrify (f / k / a Factchecker_has_annoying_username) (talk) (contribs) 16:35, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Expand to see a much clearer draft

"Sweden bashing" refers to a perception among some observers that Sweden is subjected to unfair criticism by non-Swedes that is either motivated by a desire for increased standing in their own home countries, or intended to influence Swedish government policies or social institutions. An article published by Radio Sweden said that negative reports about Sweden in foreign news media increased after Sweden accepted an unusually large number of refugees in 2015. Henrik Selin, intercultural communications head of a Swedish government agency devoted to promoting Sweden abroad, said that much of the reporting was factual and true, reflecting legitimate concerns about the ability of Sweden and Europe to absorb so many refugees at once. However, he also said that others appeared to have a poitical agenda suggesting they would like to paint a picture of countries being unable to absorb so many refugees; "There are countries who'd like Sweden to be an element in their story about a failed state," Selin added.In 2016, the Swedish Foreign Ministry issued a paper stating that Sweden bashing "is used as a way to strengthen the actor's or the disinformant's own, often domestic, purposes."The paper cited examples including an allegedly false claim by a former prime minister of Poland, Jaroslaw Kaczynski, that 54 areas in Sweden are ruled by Sharia laws and that Swedish police were unable to do anything about it. In an editorial published in the daily newspaper Sydsvenskan, Joakim Palmkvist and Olle Lonnaeus speculated that complaints by some Israeli critics of Swedish press freedoms might be motivated by a desire by the critics to gain domestic support, to pressure Sweden as chairman of the European Union in advance of coming peace talks on the Palestinian conflict, or even to prompt a press crackdown by the Swedish government. In a 2002 opinion article in New York Times Magazine, progressive economist Paul Krugman argued that American conservatives attacked Swedish welfare policies as part of an effort to spread a misguided view that redistribution of wealth to poorer citizens promotes economic inefficiency. The independent liberal daily newspaper Dagens Nyheter published an op-ed by Carl Markund, a history professor at Södertörn University, arguing that Sweden bashing dates back to the 1950s, when, according to Markund, American journalists spread false reports of Swedish moral corruption,such as high rates of suicide, alcoholism and divorce, some of which were later allegedly used by Dwight Eisenhower in his presidential campaign against John F. Kennedy. According to Markund, the trend accelerated in the 1970s and 80s, with Time Magazine writing of Sweden's "surreal socialism". During the 1980s, the Swedish Foreign Ministry began to refer to such foreign criticism as "1984 reports" in an effort to draw comparison to the dystopian society depicted in the novel 1984 by George Orwell. Markund also referred to New York Times' republication of a satirical piece from the Swedish tabloid Expressen by Swedish children's novelist and screenwriter Astrid Lindgren, complaining about high tax rates in Sweden.The publication of Lindgren's satire, "Pomperipossa in the World Of Money" led to a fierce debate over Swedish tax policy and a lowering of tax rates. References

[Draft authored by Centrify (f / k / a Factchecker_has_annoying_username) (talk) (contribs) 16:35, 23 February 2017 (UTC)]

• Draftify: this seems like an WP:NOTESSAY violation as it is currently, and the author seems to somewhat misunderstand the purpose of Wikipedia. Until it can be brought in line with WP policies and guidelines (the improved draft by Factchecker atyourservice above is a good start), I don't think it should be in mainspace. ansh666 19:39, 22 February 2017 (UTC)
• Fact checkingUnverified assertions abound. For example, the 2nd section begins with this unsourced sentence: "In the 1950s US journalists described the "Swedish sin" as a problem in the Cold War and came with false statements about alcoholism, suicide rate and divorce rate." I had never heard the phrase "Swedish sin", but the assertion seemed easy to check. I ran "Swedish sin" through a proquest news search by decade. 40s, 50s. 60s, 70s. 80s. Got fals hits (random juxtapositons of the 2 words) but finally got a real use. (Sweden is fighting pornography The Globe and Mail; Toronto, Ont. [Toronto, Ont] 04 June 1981: T.2. [1]) - Okay, it's a Canadian paper, but Toronto is not all that far over the border.) Here's what it said: "Although Swedish sin had been an expression abroad since screen actress Ulla Jacobsson gained international attention with her naked bosom in the film One Summer of Happiness in 1951, the Swedes were a little taken aback by the effects of legal pornography in their own country. The sex clubs mushroomed and became breeding grounds for prostitution, narcotics crimes, tax evasion, Anders Nelin, police commissioner and..." I guess "Swedish sin" really was in some use in North America, but this assertions that this caused problems is coming from Swedish politicians and officials in this article, and my search certainly failed to find use by journalists during the Cold War. (it produced exactly 2 hits for 1950 - 1959: The first was about a "swedish sin-gles" Player with a line break in Newsday; the 2nd was in the Los Angeles Times A14, Mar 15, 1956. A full page of classifed ads. The phrase was probably in there somewhere.) In other words, the fact form the page that I checked is an Alternative fact.E.M.Gregory (talk) 21:49, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

Perhaps you should have checked the provided source instead of making up your own then. // Liftarn (talk) 10:12, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

From the article where it says

Redan under 1950-talet beskrev amerikanska journalister ”den svenska synden” som problematisk ur ett kalla kriget-moraliskt perspektiv, följt av – falska – larmrapporter om svenskarnas höga alkoholism, självmordstal och skilsmässofrekvens som till och med letade sig in i president Eisenhowers valkampanj mot John F Kennedy 1960.

translated:

Already in the 1950s, American journalists described the "the Swedish sin" as problematic from a Cold War-moral perspective, followed by the - false - alarm reports of Swedes high alcoholism, suicide rates and divorce rates, which even found its way into President Eisenhower's election campaign against John F. Kennedy in 1960.

// Liftarn (talk) 13:47, 27 February 2017 (UTC)

• Delete as per WP:NOTESSAY, WP:SYNTH, and WP:OR. I could imagine an article on something like Sweden in the American imagination, an article that would include not only that would discuss admiration for Sweden, dissing of Sweden as a failed paradise, and Robert D. Putnam famous data set.E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:04, 22 February 2017 (UTC)

It could be merged into an article about Anti-Swedish sentiment to match others in Category:Anti-national_sentiment. // Liftarn (talk)

Also changing the name to "Sweden in the American imagination" would be in violation of WP:NAME. // Liftarn (talk) 07:46, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

• Tentative keep -- does not appear to be a recent phenomenon; see for example this 1986 snippet in what appears to be Swedish: link. The fact that a Swedish article would talk about "Sweden bashing" (rendered in English) seems to indicate significance. K.e.coffman (talk) 00:48, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

Even the French use the term Le Monde. // Liftarn (talk) 10:59, 23 February 2017 (UTC)

• Delete per E.M.Gregory. A ridiculously biased article, down to its name. Korny O'Near (talk) 01:36, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
• Keep Meets WP:GNG with multiple mentions in reliable sources. Might need some cleanup, but quality problems usually is no reason to delete an article. Sjö (talk) 06:07, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
• Delete per E.M.Gregory, notability, synthesis, etc. Jason from nyc (talk) 20:05, 23 February 2017 (UTC)
• Draftify, needs major improvements before inclusion in mainspace. I think it could become a good/acceptable article with some work. Erik.Bjareholt (talk) 09:02, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
• Strong Delete I agree that this article is an incredibly biased piece of propaganda. David A (talk) 12:59, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
• Delete, biased propaganda. --Norden1990 (talk) 18:21, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
• Keep as a notable topic, but rewrite since it is not currently well written. I'd support moving it to draft space until and while the rewrite takes place. This is Paul (talk) 19:45, 25 February 2017 (UTC)
• Keep and rewrite. simply because the article is in a bad shape does not mean it should be deleted. The article subject is relevant and notable for this time in age.BabbaQ (talk) 18:08, 28 February 2017 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.