Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Susanne Lingheim

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Ritchie333 ^(talk) ^(cont) 17:21, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Susanne Lingheim

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According to the article, Lingheim won the Best Art Direction-Set decoration Academy Award. The official Academy Award link [1] says that the sole winner was Anna Asp ("WINNER FANNY & ALEXANDER Anna Asp"). The link also includes the video of the Art Direction nominees (starts after 4 minutes). As you can see even there, Asp was the sole nominee for the category. According to the svenskfilmdatabas, Lingheim was a "propwoman" for the film, not the co-Art director/Set director. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 22:18, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 22:18, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 22:18, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Sweden-related deletion discussions. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 22:18, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Actors and filmmakers-related deletion discussions. CAPTAIN RAJU^(T) 22:35, 7 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Interesting! Yes, delete based on the source from the Academy. Good sleuthing. Lugnuts ^{Fire Walk with Me} 08:24, 8 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep It does appear to be good sleuthing, sure enough only Anna Asp comes up to accept the award in the video from the ceremony. But wait a second. I looked in contemporary sources from 1984 newspapers and found the following: The nomination list from the LA Times in February lists both women for this award. A "ballot" which ran the day before the ceremony also listed both women for this award. And finally, all the wire stories in newspapers around the country after the ceremony list both women for this award. Here's an example from the Star-Tribune in Minneapolis. I have no idea why the presenters only read Anna Asp's name, unless it was a mistake and/or they new Lingheim was not present at the ceremony and wouldn't be coming up? These sources are from newspapers.com and should be added to the article. --Krelnik (talk) 23:55, 10 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

In the same video Marik Vos-Lundh wins the award but is not present in the ceremony. Maybe whoever wrote the AA database based on what happens in the video. (CC) Tbhotch^™ 00:09, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Keep, per Krelnik. /Julle (talk) 14:45, 11 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - yes, excellent sleuthing. However, when push comes to shove, I'm going to have to go with the official Oscars website rather than newspaper clippings. Rather than the official site being wrong and possibly basing their database on watching a video (seriously?), I'm going to go with the newspapers accidently including an assistant perhaps, and all of them repeating the mistake. Which happens really frequently (not regarding Oscars, but just in general, when the first news organization gets it wrong and it gets repeated over and over). And without that Oscar win (or even the nomination), doesn't meet notability criteria. Onel5969 ^{TT me} 23:35, 14 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Missvain (talk) 01:30, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment The Oscars site is a not great primary source; newspapers being secondary are better. The footage of Asp alone being named and accepting is the best evidence that Lingheim didn't receive an Oscar. The "best production design" Oscar was usually given to the art director (Asp) AND the set decorator (Lingheim). Why Lingheim was once given as a nominee and then a winner in newspapers but was not mentioned by the Academy at the ceremony or in its database is an interesting question that perhaps the Margaret Herrick Library could answer. I can dig into Variety archives later tonight to see if they've got something different going on. I suspect it was assumed that Lingheim was nominated when she in fact was not. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 21:12, 15 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Found nothing different in Variety and other trade publications. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 01:08, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

For establishing notability, secondary sources are preferable. But the Academy is the entity that determines whether someone is an Oscar winner or not, so they are actually the best source for that fact, notwithstanding that they are a primary source. --Metropolitan90 (talk) 02:58, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: For what it's worth, I did a search in Retriever Research, which hosts the main modern Swedish newspaper archive, and Lingheim is repeatedly listed when the news go through lists of Swedish Oscar winners through the years, the first article I found (as it doesn't go much further back) from the year 2000; the latest one is from 2018. This includes the major national newspapers, the national public broadcasting company and so on. I can find no reference to this being a mistake. While it's of course possible that this is a mistake that has lived on and just kept being repeated, Fanny and Alexander is one the major films in the history of Swedish film making: someone ought to have noticed and corrected it, so that Tidningarnas Telegrambyrå wouldn't keep repeating it. But I've written to the Ingmar Bergman Foundation (Stiftelsen Ingmar Bergman), who really ought to know, and asked if they have an authoritative source here. /Julle (talk) 15:41, 16 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 16:01, 22 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. The subject's claim to notability can't be based on her winning an Oscar because she clearly didn't win it. She isn't listed in the Academy Awards database at [2]; she wasn't announced at the ceremony as being one of the nominees (see [3]); and she wasn't listed in the ceremony program, either (see [4]). If I had to guess why there might have been a discrepancy with newspapers listing Lingheim as a co-nominee, perhaps it was because Lingheim's credit (in the Swedish language) might have led the Academy to believe that she deserved to share in the nomination as the set decorator, but then after the nominations were initially announced they determined that she held a lower-level position on the production and should not have been nominated as such. But I'm just speculating. (I would like to find out what Julle hears from the Ingmar Bergman Foundation.) --Metropolitan90 (talk) 02:48, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I haven't heard back yet; I assume that means they won't reply until after the holidays. /Julle (talk) 16:23, 23 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Reviewing the references, the conclusions of Metropolitan90 seem valid and supported by the evidence available to us. If new evidence is found or the Oscars site is corrected (could be an error on their part, we don't know for sure), the page can be re-created. CosmicNotes (talk) 06:16, 30 December 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.