Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sufism Reoriented

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was moved to draft. Per Scott Burley's last comment, we can not have this discussion continue in perpetuity while editors try to figure out whether claimed sources that are not readily available contain content supporting inclusion. The solution is to move the article to draft space until sufficient sources are confirmed to exist. The article does not appear to meet Wikipedia's standards for inclusion as is. bd2412 T 23:03, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

Sufism Reoriented

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Sufism Reoriented (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)

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Whatever the heck this is currently, (school/religious order/sanctuary/nothing), nothing except some routine news-coverage and a piece over here. Current sourcing is mostly to the Meher-baba-universe (i.e. websites of his trustees, publications by in-house presses of his follower associations, biography-cum-hagiography written by one of his closest cult-associates et al).

Not enough to surpass GNG. ∯WBG^converse 13:02, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Religion-related deletion discussions. ∯WBG^converse 13:02, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. ∯WBG^converse 13:02, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of United States of America-related deletion discussions. ∯WBG^converse 13:02, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. ∯WBG^converse 13:02, 20 September 2019 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Rollidan (talk) 22:04, 27 September 2019 (UTC)

• Weak delete I'm seeing only passing mentions, and no substantive coverage. But the real results are being swamped by Baba-related publications so it's hard to be sure. Vanamonde (Talk) 16:38, 28 September 2019 (UTC)
• Merge I disagree with deletion of this article, and suggest that it be merged with the Meher Baba entry. If the Meher Baba page meets the standards for notability, then Sufism Reoriented is also notable. Though the Sufism Reoriented article arguably violates NPOV in places, this can be remedied. --Thashley (talk) 12:36, 1 October 2019 (UTC)— Thashley (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Please see WP:NOTINHERITED. FWIW, I have no qualms with a redirect though we can't merge random content to a (still) GA. ∯WBG^converse 07:24, 8 October 2019 (UTC)

• Keep and Fix WBG's WP:NOTINHERITED argument is well-taken. However, there are at least two independent sources discussing the topic. The first is the article from The Fader to which WBG alluded above. This source is non-affiliated, and acknowledges criticisms of Sufism Reoriented both from within the Meher Baba movement and in the California neighborhood in which SR's sanctuary was built. The second independent source is Andrew Rawlinson, who discusses Sufism Reoriented in his book, Book of Enlightened Masters: Western Teachers in Eastern Traditions, and also in an article entitled "A History of Western Sufism," available at: http://www.surrenderworks.com/library/imports/a_history_of_western_sufism.pdf. Please note that Rawlinson's book discusses historical opposition to Sufism Reoriented from within the Meher Baba movement. (I don't have an exact citation at the moment, but I can get it.) As there are two or more independent sources discussing Sufism Reoriented in more than just a passing way, the article can be improved to satisfy WP's notability requirement. (Albeit, by a narrrow margin).Thashley (talk) 03:23, 10 October 2019 (UTC) — Thashley (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• Let me get hold of the book through an ILL .... ∯WBG^converse 09:07, 10 October 2019 (UTC)
• I will be having the book in a fortnight and am asking for a cite (page number(s), please).

• I will provide the requested citations. Please give me 1-2 days to run this down. Thashley (talk) 13:22, 11 October 2019 (UTC) — Thashley (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.
• Relevant content can be found in Rawlinson's book on pages 247-251, 419-424, 436-438, and 543-553. Thashley (talk) 03:06, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

References

• DISKUS/JBASR does not seem to be a reputed journal at all, at all. Not indexed in Scopus or Web of Science or such selective databases. Fails RS and I am definitely not considering something so textbook-shoddy like Rawlinson's piece, published in its very first issue. ∯WBG^converse 04:49, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

• I agree that Rawlinson's DISKUS article was in rough shape as of 1993. (Indeed, I believe his book post-dates the article and encompasses most of the content.) However, I'm skeptical of your claim that JBASR is not a reliable source. BASR appears to be a legitimate religious studies organization. (https://basr.ac.uk/) Further, they claim that their journal, JBASR, is peer-reviewed. (http://www.jbasr.com/ojs/index.php/jbasr/about) Can you provide evidence that the academic community holds BASR/JBASR/DISKUS in disrepute? Thashley (talk) 17:05, 11 October 2019 (UTC)— Thashley (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

• The onus of reliability is on you to prove, using accepted scientometric evaluation standards of journal-reliability and w/o going by their own claims. I further note that it's not indexed at ATLA either and there's hardly any cites over GScholar. ∯WBG^converse 17:07, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

• There may be an additional source worth considering. Kevin Shepherd apparently published a book in 1988 entitled Meher Baba, an Iranian Liberal. At his website, Mr. Shepherd claims this book contains a critical evaluation of Ivy Duce, former leader of Sufism Reoriented, at pages 210-223. (https://www.citizenphilosophy.net/Meher_Baba_an_Irani_Mystic.html#Independence). I have not read this book, and can't vouch for its reliability, but I will attempt to locate it. By the way, if the Sufism Reoriented article survives AfD review, I will be proposing/requesting substantive changes needed to uphold NPOV requirements. As it stands, the article falls way short of the mark in this area. Thashley (talk) 23:59, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

References

• Merge and Redirect to Meher Baba.4meter4 (talk) 02:08, 4 October 2019 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, North America¹⁰⁰⁰ 03:40, 5 October 2019 (UTC)

• Delete per nom fails WP:GNG and WP:NOTINHERITED.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 19:01, 12 October 2019 (UTC)

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Relisting per editor requesting more time to track down sources and WP:NORUSH. That said, this is the 2nd relist. I would expect that next week the reviewing admin is going to want to close this one way or another.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Ad Orientem (talk) 03:34, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

• Comment There seems to be an article about the headquarters of this religious order.. I am wondering if we should selectively keep some of the content in the main article about Meher Baba.--DreamLinker (talk) 08:22, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

There seems to be some more about one of the early organisers, some theatrical stuff done by the group, a detailed article about the controversial practise of "living room churches" by the organisation, controversy regarding their mega church in California. The historical roots, including the schism from the Sufi Order of the West can be found in several scholarly books about Sufism.

References

--DreamLinker (talk) 10:51, 13 October 2019 (UTC)

• Keep tentatively based on the references above.--DreamLinker (talk) 04:30, 15 October 2019 (UTC)
• Delete. DreamLinker's refs #1–3 are passing mentions of the religious group in articles about other subjects. #4–7 are routine coverage of planning disputes the group has been involved in. All of them are in the local newspapers/sections. That leaves #8, which has a grand total of two paragraphs on the group. This still falls way short of the WP:GNG. – Joe (talk) 19:23, 20 October 2019 (UTC)
• Comment: I really don't want to re-list this for a 5th(!) week. As of now it looks like we have a number of passing mentions, mostly in articles about a land-use dispute, and a questionable journal article by Rawlinson. Also potentially books by Rawlinson and Shepherd that have not yet turned up. Pinging Winged Blades of Godric and Thashley, are you guys still working on this? -- Scott Burley (talk) 22:24, 20 October 2019 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.