Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Stephen Kahn
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- The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
The result was keep. Coffee // have a cup // ark // 00:42, 15 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Stephen Kahn[edit]
- Stephen Kahn (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • AfD statistics)
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He was notable when he was on the Seattle Mariners 40-man roster. He has since retired, never reaching the major leagues. I do not believe he did anything very notable as a minor leaguer, so I think this article should be deleted. Alex Alex (talk) 06:10, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete Never made a major league appearance. Never made it above AA ball. No awards or all-anything teams. That does not meet the standards for baseball players. DarkAudit (talk) 17:01, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Baseball-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 20:14, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of Athletes-related deletion discussions. -- • Gene93k (talk) 20:14, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep per WP:NTEMP. Nominator's statement says he was notable as one time, so the article meets the requirements for inclusion. Jim Miller See me | Touch me 21:53, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep. First, notability does not expire, and if he was notable for being on the 40-man roster, then he remains so even after he was off it. Second, he was unusually notable as an amateur, winning the West Coast Conference's Pitcher of the Year award in 2004, and winning a gold medal as a member of the rotation on the USA Baseball National Team that same year.[1] -Hit bull, win steak(Moo!) 21:57, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Baseball Reference does not list him as ever making it above the AA level, much less the majors. Just being on the 40-man roster is not really sufficient. Using another editor's opinion that the subject was notable as rationale for keeping is not enough. There has to be more concrete proof than "that guy said he was notable". The "National Team" you mention is not the true national team, but a team of college players tapped to play a series against Japanese college players. That is not a high enough amateur representation per WP:ATHLETE. The Pitcher of the Year award is for the conference, not a national award. I'm dubious that it is a high enough award. DarkAudit (talk) 22:27, 8 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Delete I fail to see notability. He was 10-10 as a college pitcher and had a 1-3 record at the highest level he played (which was only AA). No major league appearances and one victory at AA level--not notable. Papaursa (talk) 00:18, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep per Hit bull, win steak and Jim Miller. Notability does not simply expire. --Brian Halvorsen (talk) 04:15, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment WP:WPBB/N states: "To establish that [an MiLB player's article] is notable, the article must cite published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject," and that it does. --Brian Halvorsen (talk) 04:26, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Nothing says he's retired. It was added by an IP who put other players as retired and most of the edits were reverted. From what I can find he's still active. --Brian Halvorsen (talk) 04:32, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Reply The opinion of another Wikipedia editor does not meet the standards of notability. Just because one editor thought he was doesn't make it so. Notability may not expire, but I do not believe there was any notability there to begin with. So what has he done as a minor leaguer that's notable beyond merely playing? For a player who never rose above AA level, you're going to need something quite substantial to prove your assertion. The articles provided are roster moves and wrap-ups. If Kahn is mentioned at all, it's in passing. You're left with two articles at best where Kahn is the subject. Not the subtantial coverage required. DarkAudit (talk) 14:12, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment The articles still mention Kahn, making it coverage and per WP:WPBB/N that establishes notability. Also, WP:ATHLETE states: "people who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport," Minor league baseball is fully professional (see professional baseball). I'm also not sure what you mean by "opinion." They are notability guidelines, not "opinions." --Brian Halvorsen (talk) 17:22, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- A few editors are basing their endorsement on the phrase "He was notable when he was on the Seattle Mariners 40-man roster.". That is nothing but the opinion of a single editor. There is no record that he ever suited up with the major league parent club. WP:N says that an article needs to be about the subject. A mention in passing as part of a wider article about a different topic, say the movement of a block of players from Rookie League to A ball, is not sufficient. Although WP:ATHLETE says ""people who have competed at the fully professional level of a sport", the more specific baseball guideline says that minor league baseball players do not meet that more general guideline without significant coverage. A simple roster move is not significant coverage. A catch-all "notebook" column with multiple topics about the club is not significant coverage. DarkAudit (talk) 17:56, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It doesn't say "players do not meet that more general guideline without significant coverage" it says "Minor league players, managers, coaches, executives, and umpires are not assumed to be inherently notable. To establish that one of these is notable, the article must cite published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject. Fan sites and blogs are generally not regarded as reliable sources, and team sites are generally not regarded as independent of the subject. Although statistics sites may be reliable sources, they are not sufficient by themselves to establish notability." It says nothing of "notebooks" because they can be coverage from a reliable source. You can't just make stuff up. --Brian Halvorsen (talk) 18:12, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm saying that a "notebook" column in the local paper, the catch-all column for the bits and pieces that doesn't warrant an article of it's own is not significant coverage. These are the types of columns that the most pressing news might be "So-and-so used a black glove instead of his usual brown against Pawtucket today." It doesn't matter how reliable the source is if there's no there there. DarkAudit (talk) 21:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- There's no rule saying a news article can't have more than one subject. If it's from a reliable source than it is reliable coverage. The article's subject is not the references, the subject is what the references back-up in the WP article. I'm not going to continue in discussion with you if you keep making up guidelines about coverage. If the news article is reliable and has information about the subject the WP article, there's no reason it can't be used. One of the notebooks you talk about has a section about Kahn and Michael Garciaparra being named AFL rising stars [2], not "So-and-so used a black glove instead of his usual brown against Pawtucket today." You just keep making things up and I'm not going to continue discussing this with someone who can't admit what is right before them and has to resort to making guidelines out of thin air. I hope I made my point to everyone else. --Brian Halvorsen (talk) 05:20, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I am not making things up. There is nothing but trivial coverage here. Trivial coverage is most certainly part of the guidelines "Farm Report: Lefties on the rise" for example. The article is about three other pitchers who are definitely not Stephen Kahn. He doesn't get mentioned at all until the article lists other prospects at the bottom of the article. He's 9th on the list. That is trivial coverage. same for "Farm Report: Pitching in the pipeline". He's not part of the main story at all, but 5th on a list of nuggets about prospects. The reliability isn't in question. You're barking up the wrong tree there. DarkAudit (talk) 14:57, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:GNG states "'Significant coverage' means that sources address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material." Trivial material is "Kahn pitched one inning today" and articles like that are not cited in Kahn's article. The main topic about this ref isn't about Kahn's promotion but the subject is related to his promotion, this article is about prospects in full, while Kahn is mentioned in his own section. This article is about cuts in camp, Kahn being one of them. The refs aren't trivial. --Brian Halvorsen (talk) 21:51, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- They most certainly are trivial. "His own section"? One paragraph in a list of 10 players. Just mentioning his name in a list of dozen or so roster moves. Those are about as passing a mention as it gets. DarkAudit (talk) 22:27, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Well I disagree, you just want to argue and I'm not going to take the bait. I still think it's funny you call being added to a 40-man roster or being released trivial but whatever. Regardless of what you call trivial Kahn has still competed at a fully professional league (see professional and Minor league baseball) and even more closely the article cites other refs that are about Kahn so he passes WP:ATHLETE and WP:WPBB/N. Good day. --Brian Halvorsen (talk) 22:40, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- They most certainly are trivial. "His own section"? One paragraph in a list of 10 players. Just mentioning his name in a list of dozen or so roster moves. Those are about as passing a mention as it gets. DarkAudit (talk) 22:27, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- WP:GNG states "'Significant coverage' means that sources address the subject directly in detail, and no original research is needed to extract the content. Significant coverage is more than a trivial mention but it need not be the main topic of the source material." Trivial material is "Kahn pitched one inning today" and articles like that are not cited in Kahn's article. The main topic about this ref isn't about Kahn's promotion but the subject is related to his promotion, this article is about prospects in full, while Kahn is mentioned in his own section. This article is about cuts in camp, Kahn being one of them. The refs aren't trivial. --Brian Halvorsen (talk) 21:51, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I am not making things up. There is nothing but trivial coverage here. Trivial coverage is most certainly part of the guidelines "Farm Report: Lefties on the rise" for example. The article is about three other pitchers who are definitely not Stephen Kahn. He doesn't get mentioned at all until the article lists other prospects at the bottom of the article. He's 9th on the list. That is trivial coverage. same for "Farm Report: Pitching in the pipeline". He's not part of the main story at all, but 5th on a list of nuggets about prospects. The reliability isn't in question. You're barking up the wrong tree there. DarkAudit (talk) 14:57, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- There's no rule saying a news article can't have more than one subject. If it's from a reliable source than it is reliable coverage. The article's subject is not the references, the subject is what the references back-up in the WP article. I'm not going to continue in discussion with you if you keep making up guidelines about coverage. If the news article is reliable and has information about the subject the WP article, there's no reason it can't be used. One of the notebooks you talk about has a section about Kahn and Michael Garciaparra being named AFL rising stars [2], not "So-and-so used a black glove instead of his usual brown against Pawtucket today." You just keep making things up and I'm not going to continue discussing this with someone who can't admit what is right before them and has to resort to making guidelines out of thin air. I hope I made my point to everyone else. --Brian Halvorsen (talk) 05:20, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- I'm saying that a "notebook" column in the local paper, the catch-all column for the bits and pieces that doesn't warrant an article of it's own is not significant coverage. These are the types of columns that the most pressing news might be "So-and-so used a black glove instead of his usual brown against Pawtucket today." It doesn't matter how reliable the source is if there's no there there. DarkAudit (talk) 21:47, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- It doesn't say "players do not meet that more general guideline without significant coverage" it says "Minor league players, managers, coaches, executives, and umpires are not assumed to be inherently notable. To establish that one of these is notable, the article must cite published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject. Fan sites and blogs are generally not regarded as reliable sources, and team sites are generally not regarded as independent of the subject. Although statistics sites may be reliable sources, they are not sufficient by themselves to establish notability." It says nothing of "notebooks" because they can be coverage from a reliable source. You can't just make stuff up. --Brian Halvorsen (talk) 18:12, 9 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Bona-fide major leaguer. Also playing for the US National team would also make him pass WP:ATHLETE -Drdisque (talk) 02:58, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep Playing for the US National team and appearance on 40 man roster makes him notable. The article also has enough sourcing to satisfy notability requirements. Spanneraol (talk) 23:38, 10 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment According to the source in the article, the U.S. team he was selected to was a collegiate team for a series against the Japanese collegiate all-stars. When I checked USABaseball.com, it's unclear whether he was a member of the team that played in the World University baseball championships that year. I'm not sure, but I don't think that satisfies WP:ATHLETE since it's not the highest level of amateur baseball. USA Baseball only shows him with 1 start and the referenced article says it was an exhibition game against Canada where he pitched 3 innings. Sorry, but I don't see how 1 victory in AA ball and no major league appearances makes a pitcher notable. Papaursa (talk) 00:55, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Note: This debate has been included in the list of California-related deletion discussions. —RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 11:29, 11 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- Keep per non-trivial coverage in independent reliable sources. The article seems to meet our inclusion criteria. Sam Barsoom 19:42, 12 December 2009 (UTC)[reply]
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.