Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/St. Xavier's School, Behror (2nd nomination)

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus. Its true that a local afd consensus doesn't have to follow the outcome of an RFC to the letter. Its also true that since the RFC I recall closing a number of secondary schools as keep per the discussion consensus. I can't find any real consensus in this discussion unless I simply ignore the keep.side altogether. Spartaz Humbug! 22:57, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

St. Xavier's School, Behror[edit]

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St. Xavier's School, Behror (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log · Stats)
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Recreation of an earlier redirected article. Fails WP:GNG, no reliable sources, according to this article it is just a branch of St. Xavier's College, Jaipur. No independent notability The Banner talk 13:30, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • From all evidence, the school is not just a branch of another high school but it branched off and became an independent school. Jzsj (talk) 15:56, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Than I assume you have evidences/sources about that. The Banner talk 10:08, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. The Banner talk 13:30, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The link in the nomination points at: Having started with just six students, the school soon grew to accommodate many more children. It is still expanding, and has set up branches at Bhiwani, Behror, Mahua and Nevta. The Banner talk 14:47, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment : The resource you are citing in support of nomination has inadvertent mistakes which have been pointed out regularly in this discussion but then for notability you are requiring to oppose the same source which is for any article not possible since finding "negative sentences" for any article are impossible if the said context doesn't exist since the said context has been developed by the person nominating itself ! . For Example This sentence couldn't be found anywhere - " User:The Banner and User:राकेश5678 are not brothers . " because the context for it does not exist . Similarly you will not find not find this sentence anywhere -" St. Xavier's Behror is not a branch of St. Xavier's Jaipur " because as mentioned for any negative sentence to exist a prerequisite context must be there but here context has been manufactured from an inadvertent reporting. And positive independent references have been pointed out time and again by me summarised in Text Wall below for the article to exist . राकेश5678 (talk) 07:28, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: For that matter School in Nevta is same St. Xavier's School, Jaipur Nevta is a locality in Jaipur , AND it is not Bhiwani .. it is Bhiwadi that is a another institution under Delhi Jesuit Society ..website here - http://www.stxaviersbhiwadi.com/ ... Wikipedia Page here - St. Xavier's School, Bhiwadi राकेश5678 (talk 21:00 , 11 July 2020 . —Preceding undated comment added 15:38, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]


  • Retain As per "Hello" above, and also: This is a secondary school and it is being proposed that it be joined to an article on a school of tertiary education. There was hardly any previous discussion. A certified document on the separate incorporation of the school is here. Though public media in India are not easily accessed by us for such minority schools, I do not think we should hold that against this high school and deny it a place in Wikipedia. Jzsj (talk) 14:43, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • That certificate does not state that it is an independent school. The Banner talk 14:51, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • A separate institution is not always an independent institution. The Banner talk 15:36, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Agree, But A Separate may also be an independent institution . References mentioned in Text Wall point that. राकेश5678 (talk) 14:35, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

http://web.archive.org/web/20150710054606/http://www.xaviersbehror.org/aboutus.php you will find the archived info where it states that ""St. Xavier's School, Behror is a Christian minority school under the management of Jesuits of Delhi Province of the Society of Jesus, an international Catholic Religious Order. Opened in 1991, the school is affiliated to the Central Board of Secondary Education (CBSE) for the All India Secondary School Examination (Class X) and All India Senior School Certificate Examination (Class XII)."" Also User:TheBanner Canyou share any resource thatsays St. Xavier's School Behror is a part of or under control of St. Xavier's School Jaipur ? राकेश5678 (talk —Preceding undated comment added 16:15, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

B

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Schools-related deletion discussions. North America1000 17:27, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
See the link in the nomination and the earlier quote from that page. The Banner talk 20:42, 11 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]


  • Keep There was no previous discussion This is a secondary school set upin 1991 has about 1500 students enrolled and located in town of Behror of population of about 30,000 . This town Behror lies at distance of about is 142 kms from Jaipur.If there is any issue tag the page for improvements.Shyamsunder (talk) 08:11, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Collapsing a huge wall of text by राकेश5678. Sandstein 14:32, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • "Independent Status" Find clear information Showing independent status from Affliating Government Board here on this site under heading " Nature Of School" . This has been resourced from Central Board of Secondary Education which is a federal government affliating authority.

http://cbseaff.nic.in/cbse_aff/schdir_Report/AppViewdir.aspx?affno=1730149 

राकेश5678 (talk) 08:51, 12 July 2020 (UTC)राकेश5678 (talk 14:20 , 12 July 2020 ( GMT+5:30).[reply]
Canvassing (requesting other to come here to protect the article) is not appreciated. The Banner talk 10:08, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • I too don't appreciate that @ The Banner talk , But when someone continously and ""diligently ignores"" evidences otherwise and solely rests on a single news (which may have erroneous representation) and who doesn't understand other Hindi Resources provided and even ignores legal government resources stating otherwise , I was compelled to ask a local admin/moderator to provide his input . Sorry for Harsh Language . It also should not be appreciated someone sitting 1000 miles away dictates the terms even when he doesn't understand context .
        ** And why did I say Erroneous Representation because the news report mentions ---Quote -" Having started with just six students, the school soon grew to 
     accommodate many more children. It is still expanding, and has set up branches at ""Bhiwani"", Behror, Mahua and Nevta.---- There is not even a St. Xavier's School in Bhiwani which is directly controlled by Delhi Jesuits (http://www.delhijesuits.org/) .{{{In your report It is St. Xavier's High School, Bhiwani which is nowhere mentioned to be controlled by Delhi Jesuits directly  which may be a copycat or If I find resources about that I will update here}}}--The one which isa correct is --> St. Xavier's School, Bhiwadi  .News Reports may also have erroneous representation . You can't solely base your reference on one single report even when two hindi language news sources tell otherwise .

As far as resources I have both St. Xavier's High Schools Bhiwani and Mahua are copycats or otherwise .

Because the school that Delhi Jesuits run is in Mahwa, Rajasthan ( Dausa District Rajasthan ) and the one mentioned in your report is Mahua (community development block) which is in Bihar .

Similarly the school that Delhi Jesuits run is in Bhiwadi ( Alwar District Rajasthan ) and the one mentioned in your report is Bhiwani which is in Haryana .

In schools run by Delhi Jesuits and in their logos IHS will be present which is not present in both the above cases .(Mahua , Bihar and Bhiwani , Haryana). 

— Preceding unsigned comment added by राकेश5678 (talk • contribs) 12:33, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]


The ones directly controlled by Delhi Jesuits are mentioned under heading Our Institutions mentioned in footer of Website ---> http://www.delhijesuits.org/

and are repeated here as such --

Our Institutions St. Xavier’s School, Rohini St. Xavier’s School, Civil Lines St. Xavier’s School, Bhiwadi St. Xavier’s School, Jaipur St. Xavier’s School, Behror


Another Information on Schools run By Delhi Jesuits is here --->http://www.delhijesuits.org/education/

You might have to view source code , page doesnot display all letters accurately ( at least here )

Quoted as such It runs six major schools and two upcoming schools. The oldest school in the Province is St. Xavier’s Sr. Secondary School, C-Scheme, Jaipur, established in 1942 while it was part of the Patna Province. The second oldest is St. Xavier’s Sr. Sec. School, Raj Niwas Marg, Delhi started in 1960. St. Xavier’s Sr. Sec. School, Bhiwadi, Rajasthan, St. Xavier’s Sr. Sec. School, Behror, Rajasthan, and St. Xavier’s Sr. Sec. School, Shahabad, Delhi were established more or less in the same time. The most recent major school is St. Xavier’s Sr. Sec. School, Nevta, Jaipur which was begun in 2014. The developing schools in the rural set up are St. Xavier’s School, Ropar, Punjab, and St. Xavier’s School, Mahua, Rajasthan. Altogether, the Province is catering to more than 15,800 school students.


Below is a personal question -- I apologize before hand for asking --

To @ The Banner talk---->

I had two questions as analogy - Why this page --> St. Xavier's School, Nevta and this page ---> St. Xavier's School, Bhiwadi and this page -----> St. Xavier's High School, Mahua are present there and why you intentionally are behind this page ?

राकेश5678 (talk) 11:47, 12 July 2020 (UTC)राकेश5678 (talk) 5:17 , 12 July 2020 (GMT+5:30).[reply]

Every article is judged on it own merits, so comparing is useless. And I am under no obligation to check other articles, I am just a volunteer-editor. The Banner talk 12:44, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
</> @ The Banner talk---->

I am too a volunteer -editor improving articles of my city and why I am adamant here because I used my time to gather resources for this article which are in line with Wikipedia's policies . And why to compare because you didn't intentionally understand provided resources . And hell bent on referring again again on a single report , mistakes in which were pointed out by me .I am improving articles in alwar district and I though the same here and did proper research ( thats why I am wasting my time here with you because I can't let go waste my time for want of a single admin who even doesn't know where jaipur or behror is )When trying to write about one of the first CBSE Schools in my city . I also don't have any interest in editing articles out of Rajasthan which is not my expertise .

--राकेश5678 (talk) 13:07, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]


Reason for Comparison - Because you are referencing these same things in your news report (in which mistakes have been pointed out above) used for nomination to delete this article राकेश5678 (talk) 13:10, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]



  • Retain- Find summary of resources and arguments in favor of retaining Page -

Independent Secondary References/Sources-

https://www.bhaskar.com/rajasthan/alwar/news/rajasthan-news-st-xavier-school-dominated-in-basketball-boys-beat-in-17-and-19-squads-074505-5451472.html 

          In Hindi - Mentions Xavier's            Basketball Cup , Alwar district Interschool tournament organised by St. Xavier's behror Evety year .

https://www.bhaskar.com/news/RAJ-OTH-MAT-latest-khairthal-news-044036-478767-NOR.html 

        Again mention of St. Xavier's Behror with no mention of St. Xavier's Jaipur.

https://school.careers360.com/schools/st-xaviers-school-behror-alwar

Complete School profile from a reputed Educational Website in India.


http://cbseaff.nic.in/cbse_aff/schdir_Report/AppViewdir.aspx?affno=1730149

Federal Government body database of affiliatedSchools

http://www.stangelasophiajaipur.in/CampusNews_Secondary_201920.aspx

School in Jaipur Which participated in tournament in St. Xavier's School, Behtor

http://office.incometaxindia.gov.in/hindi/jaipur/Lists/Exempted%20Institutions/DispForm.aspx?ID=88&ContentTypeId=0x010098C21414FD53114DB5ABFEB74E3075FE 

       Income Tax Rebate to Xavier Behror Educational Society , Controlling body of St. Xavier's Behror

https://fitindia.gov.in/events/run-for-unity-3/


http://www.environmentclearance.nic.in/state/FORM_B_PDF.aspx?cat_id=SIA/RJ/IND2/21349/2017&pid=New

Environment filing showing St. Xavier's Behror is located in RIICO industrial area .

https://xaviersbehror.org/minority.php

Most Important legal document showing no whatsoever link to St. Xavier's School Jaipur as in any legal document name or mention of controlling authority should be present if the said school is a branch of it .

https://www.yumpu.com/en/document/read/18991917/ind-area-keshwana-kotputli-riico

Authoriative document mentioning Schools in Behtor City .

Linked Secondary References/ Sources -


http://www.delhijesuits.org/education/

Mentions history and sequence of Schools established by it .The page has some error in displaying fonts .You might want to read HTML source of page to read the full text .The said Text has been quoted earlier in discussion , Please reference there.

http://www.delhijesuits.org/

Website Footer clearly mentions Education Schools under it .

http://www.stxaviersbhiwadi.com/ Also mentions some history of St. Xavier's Behror in General Infotmation Page .

http://alwarsahodaya.com/st-xaviers-school-behror/

Very Important info provided by source. It is an infotmal grouping CBSE Affliated Schools in India .Here mentionef is Alwar Chapter under ehich Behror City Falls .


Primary Sources -

http://web.archive.org/web/20150710054606/http://www.xaviersbehror.org/aboutus.php

http://xaviersbehror.org/aboutschool.php Authentic legalingo provided here as required by Federal Government legislation and CBSE

https://www.xaviersbehror.org/

Official Website of the Page in Question


Note -- Secondary Sources are those which are not linked to the institution in question . Linked Secondary sources have some linkage to the institution in question .Primary sources are from the institution itself.


Arguments in Favor .


Authentic Goverment of Rajasthan Minority Department Document on School's Website mentions that School is controlled by Xavier Behror Educational Society ( XBES) .It is registerd in Behror under Income Tax Filings mentioned here therefore not linked to St. Xavier's Jaipur which is in Jaipur and managed by JXEA which is a different trust registered in Jaipur .Both St. Xavier's Nevta , St. Xavier's College Jaipur and St. Xavier's School Jaipur are managed by JXEA (Jaipur Xavier's Education Association ) .

The only link between XBES and JXEA is that they both are established by Delhi Jesuits and have members from it.

This wholly negates the argument that St. Xavier's Jaipur manages St. Xavier's Behror. 

          Similarly for St. Xavier's Bhiwadi


Government of India Body Central Board of Education which is affliating body for CBSE Schools all over India mentions this school as Independent and data there has no links with St. Xavier 's Jaipur .


There is no mention of St.Xavier's Behror on St. Xavier's Jaipur Official Website .Had it been a branch of it definitely there would have been Mention of ot there .


Delhi Jesuits Website mentions St. Xavier's Behror alongside St. Xavier's Jaipur implying that these are equivalent institutions under it .It nowehere mentions St. Xavier's Behror is a branch of St. Xavier's Jaipur.



Why argument in favor of Deletion or Redirect doesnot hold ground.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/city/jaipur/Raje-to-launch-75th-anniversary-celebrations-of-St-Xaviers-School-Jaipur/articleshow/51012259.cms


Having started with just six students, the school soon grew to accommodate many more children. It is still expanding, and has set up branches at Bhiwani, Behror, Mahua and Nevta.

Factual Inaccuracies in above statement from Report -

There is no School of Delhi Jesuits in either Bhiwani (Which is in Harayana) or Mahua (Which is in Bihar).Arguments in favor of this statement -

→ All Delhi Jesuit Schools have IHS in their Official Logos .Check Logos of these two on their Official Websites .

→ There is no mention that these schools (Bhiwani- https://stxaviersbhiwani.in and Mahua - http://www.xaviersmahua.com/) are managed by Delhi Jesuit Society in their Websites while it is the norm in all other schools under Delhi Jesuit Province that they mention in their Websites that they are managed by Delhi Jesuits .Reporter included Copycat Names .

→ As mentioned here in Linked Secondary Source Delhi Jesuit province controls 6 Schools where Schools with similar names are Bhiwadi in Rajasthan and Mahwa in Rajasthan.

→ The other two schools mentioned in report are - Behror and Nevta .

St. Xavier's Nevta's Website ( https://www.stxaviersschoolnevta.in/ )mentions beforehand that it is a branch of St. Xavier's School Jaipur , While there is no such mention of In St. Xavier's Behror's Website .

Assuming that St. Xavier's Behror is a branch of St. Xavier's Jaipur and is managed by Same Delhi Jesuits as a policy it should also mention the same in its website because all other particulars in websites of these schools regarding Delhi Jesuits are same .

→ Secondary Linked Source clearly mentions that St. Xavier's Jaipur was the first institution established by it in 1942 then St. Xavier's Delhi → St. Xavier's Behror and St. Xavier's Bhiwadi and so on . Assuming that On basis Which St. Xavier's Delhi's Page and St. Xavier's Bhiwadi's Page is present on Wikipedia Same must be criteria for St. Xavier's Behror Since in One of the editir's World view these are branches of St. Xabier's Jaipur.But that is not true these all are independent institutions under Delhi Jesuits as mentioned here →



Now arguments other than for redirection --->

Finally arguments why a page of this School is importannt


Below info may not be neutral but might include my personal Inclinations --

I have been improving pages of Alwar district and especially of my home city under it .


I don't have any online source to point it but as far as according to offline sources this was the first CBSE afffiliated school in my city.

and this definitely requires a Wikpedia Page which May not be revelant to Someone 1000 miles away but is definitely relevant to Someone in Rajasthan.

From all evidence, the school is not just a branch of another high school but it branched off and became an independent school. Jzsj (talk) 15:56, 11 July 2020 (UTC) It had remained independent of St. Xavier's Jaipur since establishment nothing sort of Branched off.

From all the above arguments it is clear that St. Xavier's School, Behror deserves independent page . But I also mention that I don't have neutral viewpoint in this discussion Since I put this article up . But I also abhor if someone without proper context / information gets in between . If someone bases all of his arguments in single reference and ignores a heap of counter evidence .

I support RETAIN , it is worthy of it .

राकेश5678 (talk) 18:51, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Sandstein 14:30, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Lightburst (talk) 16:07, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep -- We commonly ALLOW articles on secondary school to exist, in contrast to primary schools. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:10, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Only when these schools can prove their notability. The time that school-articles were kept just because they were about schools is long gone. The Banner talk 17:39, 19 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep -- secondary schools are typically kept.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 00:12, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • RFC on secondary school notability: Secondary schools are not presumed to be notable simply because they exist. The Banner talk 09:00, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
      • That RfC doesn't apply here, because "References to demonstrate notability may be offline, and this must be taken into consideration before bringing a page to AFD" which was apparently not done. Moreover, the offline sources are possibly in Hindi, making this even harder.--Epiphyllumlover (talk) 18:45, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
        • The RFC does apply here. As you can see the author of the article is a local . He/She should have access to the local library to find newspapers, magazines and books that describe the school. The Banner talk 20:25, 25 July 2020 (UTC) quote: I am too a volunteer -editor improving articles of my city and why I am adamant here because I used my time to gather resources for this article which are in line with Wikipedia's policies .(...) When trying to write about one of the first CBSE Schools in my city . (...)--राकेश5678 (talk) 13:07, 12 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
          • Yes but I can't take images of them and paste here , offline sources are difficult to site . And online sources other than listed above are mostly in E-Paper edition and some behind paywall. WP:SNG. I don't know if Newsletters are admissible under WP:N. Here are the links for one of them : https://www.jesuits.global/sj_files/2020/05/annuario2015_en.pdf {PG 67} {Weak Primary},

https://jcsaweb.org/jcsa_publications/NL_Nov_19/2019.11.Nov.DM_v2.pdf {PG 2}. Besides that the references sites earlier in the discussion do satisfyWP:Nand also WP:SNG might be applicable here . राकेश5678 (talk) 15:36, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  • Weak Delete I cannot find any non-trivial references in online English language sources. Since this is a branch of another school, good sources may not exisit in any language, online or offline. However, if @राकेश5678: or another user could identify good sources in Hindi or another local langauge, even if the sources were not available online, I could be convinced to change my !vote. — BillHPike (talk, contribs) 16:03, 20 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Comment: @(talk, contribs)"{Since this is a branch of another school".}. Independent refrences which qualify WP:N have been included in the collapsed text wall mentioned above .I Wonder how Following sources -- CBSE , Career360 , Income Tax India Filing , Govt of India Minority Certificate fail notability reference for this article here . Since according to WP:N they must be independent , all of the above are independent of the subject of article and are reliable three of them are Government Institutions the remaining is a reputed educational news website in India and have more than trivial reference and Besides Yes there are many articles in Hindi Language in the following Newspapers - Rajasthan Patrika ( Bhiwadi Patrika ) and Dainik Bhaskar (Behror-Neemrana Bhaskar ) but those are in their Print and E-paper Editions which till recently were open access but now are behind paywall so unfortunately I may not be able to include those reporting here . Yes few reporting that has been in their digital site has been included by me above in text wall .WP:SNG . राकेश5678 (talk) 07:41, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep It is a separate school with 55 staff, in the Delhi province of the Society of Jesus. Checking the references, this is a properly registered school. The article itself needs more information as the home page of this school has vision, mission and a bit more up to date information. Whiteguru (talk) 08:16, 21 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - I'm unsure, but just to be clear, "secondary schools are typically kept" is an invalid keep rationale as per this RfC, so I would hope anyone who closes this as something other than redirect will specify the policy-based arguments to the contrary. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 19:27, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • The RFC was contentious as it was a forced consensus when there was none and is routinely disputed at AFD, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 21:15, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • Yes, it was a bitter defeat for the keep-camp, who never acknowledged the new facts that school-articles are no longer kept because those are about schools but have to prove their notability. The Banner talk 21:20, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • And yet nobody actually contested the closure. Instead, a small minority of people who didn't like the outcome just pretended like it didn't happen, and thus it falls to the AfD closers to weigh WP:JDLI arguments accordingly. — Rhododendrites talk \\ 21:50, 25 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Time for another RFC as it is being used to overrule later consensus at AFD by closers. It was three and a half years ago and consensus changes. Regarding the first RFC I wasn't even aware of it at the time and there are many similar. Also it's notable that the deletion camp keep quoting the RFC but revert to common outcomes with regard to elementary schools, imv Atlantic306 (talk) 00:19, 26 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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