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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Despite the walls of text and the inordinate amount of links, the "keep" argument fails to convince. Randykitty (talk) 14:55, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

South-Eastern Sydney[edit]

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South-Eastern Sydney (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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There is some debate on my talk page on whether South Eastern Sydney actually exists or whether it is a subregion of Eastern Suburbs (Sydney). I think there is a lack of reliable sources to make it a stand alone article. LibStar (talk) 22:53, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: Geography and Australia. Spiderone(Talk to Spider) 23:06, 7 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge Appears duplicative and the main article can cover this without a separate page. Reywas92Talk 02:15, 8 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • South-Eastern Sydney should remain an article as it is separate from the Eastern Suburbs for numerous reasons for which I've already made a valid argument with significant justification on both Libstar and Daceyvillain's talk pages if anyone would wish to have a look at previous debates regarding this topic.
At the end of the day the article of South-Eastern Sydney was created over a decade ago for a reason and I've simplified all the valid reasons below as to why it's separate;
- The Eastern Suburbs is directly east of the CBD, the south-eastern suburbs are geographically south-east of the CBD, any map can show you this making a lot of this debate quite obviously unnecessary. Saying a suburb like Matraville is within the same area of Sydney as a suburb like Rose Bay wouldn't make any sense.
- The two have separate LGAs with the Eastern Suburbs having Waverley and Woollahra Council while the South-East has Randwick Council and Eastern parts of Bayside Council which fall east of the Eastern Distributor.
- The two culturally are separate with different NRL teams. The Eastern Suburbs having the Roosters and the South-east having the Rabbitohs which is referred to as South Sydney Rabbitohs.
- The two have separate Federal divisions. The Eastern Suburbs has The division of Wentworth, the south-east has the division of Kingsford Smith.
- The two have different parishes. The Eastern Suburbs has the parish of Alexandria, the south-east has the Parish of Botany.
- The two have different major Westfield shopping centres. The Eastern Suburbs has Westfield Bondi Junction, the south-east has Westfield Eastgardens which the suburb was named after.
- The two have separate series of postcodes with the Eastern Suburbs having postcodes 2021 starting in Paddington to 2030 ending in Watsons Bay, the south-east has 2031 starting in Randwick to 2036 ending in La Perouse. Randwick and Watsons Bay are nowhere near next to each other in case it seems like an articulate continuation.
- The two have separate local papers. The eastern suburbs has the Wentworth Courier, the south-east has the Southern Courier.
- The two have different railways of transport. The Eastern Suburbs has the 'Eastern Suburbs railway' to Bondi Junction, the south-east has the 'CBD and south-east light rail' to Randwick and Kingsford with possible future plans to extend to Maroubra.
- Major roads for the two areas taking people to the CBD are completely separate. The Eastern Suburbs has Oxford St and New South Head Rd, the south-east has Anzac Pde and The Eastern Distributor.
- If you were to look at the demographics and socioeconomics of Waverley Council & Woollahra Council vs City of Randwick you'd see a significant difference overall. Saying a suburb like Maroubra belongs in the same demographic as a suburb like Vaucluse wouldn't be coherent.
- Colloquially people who live in the south-east may say they live in the 'east' or 'eastern suburbs' and references to the 'Eastern Suburbs' in the larger sense can refer to the two areas by default but when Sydneysiders think of and/or refer to the 'Eastern Suburbs' they would include suburbs like Paddington, Bondi, Vaucluse, Rose Bay, Bronte, Watsons Bay etc. It would be highly unlikely by 'Eastern Suburbs' they'd be referring to suburbs like Matraville, Hillsdale, Botany, Pagewood and Chifley.
- Residents who live in suburbs like Vaucluse and Paddington wouldn't recreationally shop at Westfield Eastgardens and residents of Botany and Chifley wouldn't recreationally visit Watsons Bay. Residents of the Woollahra and Waverley Council areas in general also wouldn't think of a suburb like Matraville to be part of their area nor associate it with the 'Eastern Suburbs'.
While there aren't any maps that clearly outline the border between the two areas, the separation lies amongst the geographic proximity from the CBD, the LGAs, the federal divisions and the postcode sequences which are all mentioned above. The fact that the two are separate areas of Sydney is incredibly evident in every way.
I've attached a bunch of sources to justify my argument;
https://cambridgehotel.com.au/feed/blog/10-must-visit-places-in-south-east-sydney
https://www.transport.nsw.gov.au/projects/current-projects/cbd-and-south-east-light-rail
https://profile.id.com.au/randwick/about
https://economy.id.com.au/randwick/infrastructure
https://dictionaryofsydney.org/place/randwick_local_government_area
https://www.secc.sydney/
https://www.scentregroup.com/our-customers/westfield-destinations/westfield-eastgardens
https://www.alp.org.au/our-people/our-people/matt-thistlethwaite/
https://www.linkt.com.au/using-toll-roads/about-sydney-toll-roads/eastern-distributor/sydney
https://www.sydney.com/destinations/sydney/sydney-east/la-perouse
https://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/newslocal/southern-courier
https://www.rabbitohs.com.au/
https://lsre.com.au/commercial-south-east/
https://go4fun.com.au/locations/south-eastern-sydney/
https://sydneysoutheastpsychiatry.com.au/contact-us
https://www.sgsep.com.au/projects/south-east-sydney-transport-strategy
https://www.healthdirect.gov.au/australian-health-services/20072244/south-eastern-sydney-mental-health-services/services/randwick-2031--confidential-address- 203.49.228.129 (talk) 08:18, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This actually lists La Perouse in the east www.sydney.com/destinations/sydney/sydney-east
You should also create an account rather than using different IPs. LibStar (talk) 08:34, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You refer to id.com.au when it actually includes La Perouse in the eastern suburbs https://economy.id.com.au/sydney-eastern-suburbs LibStar (talk) 08:38, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
How does a business link https://sydneysoutheastpsychiatry.com.au/contact-us or https://cambridgehotel.com.au/feed/blog/10-must-visit-places-in-south-east-sydney prove that there is an official entity with boundaries called south East Sydney? At best it's a subregion of the Eastern suburbs. You can have different demographics, shopping centres and Federal electorates in the same region like in the Northern Beaches or Greater Western Sydney (different rugby league teams too). LibStar (talk) 08:47, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Not one of the above numerous links supplied by 203.49.228.129 actually defines which suburbs are part of "South East Sydney" nor provides a map of boundaries. LibStar (talk) 22:39, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Maps
Here are some official government maps that I posted in the earlier discussions.
I am yet to find any map that identifies so-called South East Sydney. But there are countless maps (government, commercial and otherwise) which clearly identify the Eastern Suburbs and show it extending all the way south to La Perouse
https://www.mysydney.nsw.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-05/South%20East%20map.pdf
https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/[email protected]/0/f402dd663f9a63efca256ad4007f6817/$FILE/Map%204%20from%20NSW_ASGC.pdf
https://www.abs.gov.au/census/find-census-data/quickstats/2016/118 Daceyvillain (talk) 11:44, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Eastgardens
Eastgardens describes itself as “a key retail destination for residents in the Eastern Suburbs”
https://apps.planningportal.nsw.gov.au/prweb/PRRestService/DocMgmt/v1/PublicDocuments/DATA-WORKATTACH-FILE%20PEC-DPE-EP-WORK%20RR-2020-98!20200912T090408.261%20GMT Daceyvillain (talk) 11:47, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Eastern Suburbs Line
The Eastern Suburbs line was designed to terminate at Kingsford/Daceyville but was shortened to Bondi Junction due to budget constraints
http://www.coogeemedia.com.au/esr.pdf Daceyvillain (talk) 11:54, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Daceyvillain: are you supporting keep or delete of this article? LibStar (talk) 22:40, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I thought other people should decide, but I personally think it should be merged into the main article for the Eastern Suburbs Daceyvillain (talk) 22:42, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Here is a nice diagram from 1968 of the "Eastern Suburbs Railway" terminating at Kingsford/Daceyville. http://honisoit.com/2020/04/sydneys-disused-stations-a-tale-of-three-fates/ Daceyvillain (talk) 08:23, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Borders
One of the arguments above is about areas having different cultures. For the sake of argument, let’s start with Bronte. If Bronte is culturally in the Eastern Suburbs, then so should its neighbour Clovelly. Ignoring the named beaches, if you were walking around streets in this area, you wouldn’t know when Bronte ends and when Clovelly begins. But if Clovelly is in the Eastern Suburbs, then so should its neighbour Coogee, for the same reason. Ignoring the named beaches, you wouldn’t know when Clovelly ends and when Coogee begins. You can continue this argument all the way down to La Perouse.
Aside:
In modern times, borders are often defined by motorways, as motorways are loud, wide, polluted and discourage walking between the suburbs on either side of them. In this way the Eastern Distributor and M1 act as an unofficial border for the Eastern Suburbs. Daceyvillain (talk) 12:11, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Light rail
The new light rail network is reusing routes from the old tram network (e.g. Anzac Parade). The old tram network continued all the way south to La Perouse and the routes were collectively called the Eastern Suburbs Lines
Trams in Sydney#/media/File:Eastern trams.png Daceyvillain (talk) 12:22, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Council borders
Council borders are not a reliable way to define something. The trend in Sydney is for councils to merge together every 10 or 20 years and form larger councils. One day soon, The City of Randwick is likely to have merged with Waverley Council to become a single council. It won’t make sense to try to distinguish between the councils, because they will be a single council. 159.196.116.163 (talk) 12:42, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Merge My vote is to merge (delete this page) for the reasons discussed here and previously Daceyvillain (talk) 10:16, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Warning Despite this page being considered for deletion, the anonymous author keeps trying to embed their concept of "South East Sydney" into other parts of Wikipedia, such as https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:Sydney_image_with_region_labels Daceyvillain (talk) 08:43, 13 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Please see lengthy discussion at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template_talk:Sydney_image_with_region_labels Daceyvillain (talk) 06:21, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This economic profile is a joint initiative of Randwick City Council, Waverley Municipal Council and Woollahra Municipal Council as local government authorities located in the Eastern Suburbs sub-region of the Sydney Metropolitan area.

The Eastern Suburbs study area is a sub-region of the wider Sydney metropolitan area, located east and south-east of the Sydney Central Business District. The Australian Bureau of Statistics identifies the Eastern Suburbs as an SA3 statistical subdivision that includes the local government areas of Waverley, Woollahra and Randwick.

The Eastern Suburbs extends from the peninsula of South Head at Watsons Bay in the north to La Perouse on Botany Bay in the south. The northern part of the Eastern Suburbs comprises the affluent suburbs of Vaucluse, Rose Bay, Darling Point, Dover Heights, Double Bay, Point Piper, Watsons Bay, and Bellevue Hill. Centrally located to the Eastern Suburbs is Centennial Park, surrounded by the suburbs of Woollahra, Paddington, Bondi Junction, Queens Park, Randwick, Kensington, Clovelly and Coogee. To the south, the area includes suburbs such as Maroubra, Matraville, Malabar, Little Bay and La Perouse. In total, the Eastern Suburbs covers an area of around 58 square kilometres, incorporating 34 suburbs. The Eastern Suburbs features an extensive coastline, including some of Sydney’s most popular and best known beaches such as Bondi, Tamarama, Bronte, Clovelly, Coogee, Maroubra, Malabar, Little Bay and

La Perouse. The region also borders Sydney Harbour to the north and Botany Bay to the south.

LibStar (talk) 08:31, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

You've basically just ignored everything I had to say about the topic and every point I had to prove so really there isn't even any point in trying to improve Wikipedia's accuracy if I'm just going to be come across ignorant editors pushing their own opinion and beliefs. I'm actually very tired of this debate when the truth of the matter is in plain sight. I hope more coherent editors come across this debate and see the facts. La Perouse's suburb description clearly states it is southeastern. There's even a high school in Maroubra called South Sydney High School.
https://sthsydney-h.schools.nsw.gov.au/
The eastern suburbs are east of the Sydney CBD, the south-eastern suburbs are south-east of the Sydney CBD. There isn't much more to it than that. 203.49.228.129 (talk) 09:11, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The name of the school which actually doesn't include "south east" in its name hardly proves that "south east Sydney" exists. If it was called "South Eastern Sydney High School" you would have a credible argument but you don't. You have ignored an official report of council above (unlike most of your links) which clearly states the eastern suburbs stretches to La Perouse. It's got nothing to do with demographics or where people like to shop. LibStar (talk) 09:16, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
What the Australian Bureau of Statistics considers as eastern suburbs, choose to ignore official government website as usual. https://www.abs.gov.au/census/find-census-data/quickstats/2016/118 LibStar (talk) 09:23, 9 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Still waiting for a response from @203.49.228.129: LibStar (talk) 10:30, 12 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Break

page 11 of official annual report. https://www.randwick.nsw.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0007/357397/2021-22-Annual-Report.PDF "Randwick City is located in the eastern suburbs of Sydney, bounded by Waverley Council to the north, the Pacific Ocean to the east, Botany Bay to the south and the City of Sydney and Bayside councils to the west." LibStar (talk) 04:14, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment (I am not the IP editor above): "South-Eastern Sydney" certainly exists, if not necessairly under that name. It's the whole southern part of the Eastern Suburbs, aka the Parish of Botany. This is the part of the eastern suburbs that isn't the "traditional" Eastern Suburbs, being the LGAs of Waverley and Woollahra. The ABS Statistical Area Level 3 called "Eastern Suburbs - South" pretty much correlates with the customary "South-East": https://www.abs.gov.au/census/find-census-data/quickstats/2021/11802 . That all being said, I agree it doesn't need its own article. There is evidently little to say about this sub-region. The "Eastern Suburbs" region can easily deal with both the traditional conception and the wider conception that includes the South-East. We have too many region articles already. Everyone seems to be snobby about the other parts of their region and want their own little bit to have its own article. It's only a matter of time before we get people wanting article about "the Paris End of Canterbury-Bankstown", or "the Lower Upper North Shore", or "the Inner Inner West Excluding Burwood and Strathfield". --49.255.185.235 (talk) 06:12, 14 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Concept is original research. Stifle (talk) 10:21, 15 March 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete subject is original research and duplicates other articles. 11:42, 15 March 2023 (UTC)
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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