Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sophia Jansson-Zambra

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. Why the heck was this relisted? Nobody called for a delete, really, and the nom withdrew. NAC. Ten Pound Hammer and his otters • ^{(Broken clamshells • Otter chirps • HELP)} 02:47, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Sophia Jansson-Zambra

Speedy for "not notable" got declined, although both editors agreed it was a borderline case. Suggestion was to take it here, so here it is.
Delete - My reasoning: I don't think WP:BIO is met at all. Sophia Jansson's father and uncle are fairly notable, and indeed most of the article and refs are actually about them. Sophia gets two sentences. Basically she appears to be just another office manager, working in her father's company. I don't see how that makes her notable. With all due respect, of course. ~~SIS~~ 22:36, 14 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Changed to keep. The current version[1] is a huge improvement compared to the one I tagged for deletion[2] four days ago. I think notability is now shown and well sourced. I suggest to close this discussion and keep the article. ~~SIS~~ 22:27, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Her father and aunt are both dead leaving her as the "heir" to the popular Moomin merchandising created by her aunt. She has contributed work with her father (prior to his death) to oversight of some of the most recent projects related to this series and she now provides the sole oversight for several projects related to the series. As a member of the Jansson line, she is afforded a legitimacy in her projects which is lacking for others (like the Augsburger Puppenkiste group, Masaaki Osumi, Rintaro, and a number of other typically Japanese "office managers") who have created "non-canon" products. In this way she can be compared to Roger S. Baum, the grandson of the creator of the Wizard of Oz. -Thibbs (talk) 13:14, 15 September 2008 (UTC) (article creator) Thibbs (talk) 14:31, 16 September 2008 (UTC)(sl. clarif.)[reply]

Note - It is quite inaccurate to suggest that only 2 of the 10 sentences in the stub discuss Jansson-Zambra. In point of actual fact, Jansson-Zambra is explicitly discussed in 7 of the 10 sentences and is implicitly referenced in 1 more. Only 2 sentences are given her aunt and 3 sentences discuss her father. Both her father and aunt are only discussed in connection to their relation to Jansson-Zambra. -Thibbs (talk) 13:40, 15 September 2008 (UTC) Thibbs (talk) 14:31, 16 September 2008 (UTC)(sl. clarif.)[reply]

I still don't see how that satisfies WP:BIO (or WP:NOTINHERITED), sorry. She's mentioned in the Moomin article already, and I'd say that's sufficient. All my searches turn up not much more than that she's a manager at Moomin. ~~SIS~~ 12:05, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

With respect, it appears that you are unfamiliar with the series in question here. Evidence points to the fact that your review of the stub was little more than a cursory formality and that this is simply part of the well-intentioned but poorly executed campaign of a self-proclaimed deletionista. I agree that deletionism is a valid viewpoint and that there are certain concrete benefits deletionists (and deletionistas) provide to wiki as a project, but in maintaining a position of deletion based solely on personal first impressions and sticking to it in particular instances contrary to the views of one's peers (see [3] and [4]) strikes me as taking things too personally. Wikipedia is a community and one's pride is never at stake. Sticking strictly to the matter at hand, it is helpful here to review the repeatedly referenced WP:BIO.

According to WP:BIO:

Basic criteria - Y - There is a presumption of notability in cases where "[the person in question] has been the subject of published secondary source material which is reliable, intellectually independent, and independent of the subject." Here Jansson-Zambra is the subject of a number of reliable independent sources (I believe this is the reason the speedy-delete was twice refuted).
Additional criteria - YYYYY - "A person is generally notable if they meet any of the following standards. Failure to meet these criteria is not conclusive proof that a subject should not be included."
"The person has received a notable award or honor" - Y - Here Jansson-Zambra has been asked to speak at numerous events including invitations from the Finnish consulate in Washington. There is at least an argument that this is something of an honor.

"The person has made a widely recognized contribution that is part of the enduring historical record in his or her specific field" - Y - Here Jansson-Zambra provides supervision and oversight for the comics made after the Moomin series and maintains artistic control over the output related to the greater Moomin series (including print, film, and graphic media). She is widely cited in relation to the product line (See below).

"The person is regarded as an important figure or is widely cited by their peers or successors." - Y - I already have provided 6 reputable cites. See the following additional examples: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6). Although arguably not a peer, her aunt also gives her mention in her novel, Rent Spel, and she is the hero of the book Sommarboken by implicit reference. As discussed in the rationale for invalidation of the proposed speedy-delete, the high caliber of many of these citations is above question.

"The person has played a major role in co-creating, a collective body of work, which has been the subject of an independent book or feature-length film, or of multiple independent periodical articles or reviews" - Y - As artistic director in charge of oversight she contributes to the development of the greater Moomin series. This series is widely popular in many (33+) countries (See ref). An incomplete list of scholarly works on the series can be found at the fi.wikipedia article.

"The person's work either (a) has become a significant monument, (b) has been a substantial part of a significant exhibition, (c) has won significant critical attention." - Y - (a) Jansson-Zambra's work relates to the Moomin series and as the main author of the series has died Jansson-Zambra's work may be considered either peri- or deutero- rather than proto-canonical. This is significantly monumental in nature. (b) She has taken part in the 31st "Dreams & Visions" Annual Children's Literature Conference and will take part in Helsinki Design Week 2008 in a week or so. She has also been a major part of at least one documentary on her aunt ([5]). (c) evidence of critical attention may be found throughout the sources on the page and those provided here.

To address your concerns that your personal research has not yielded any substantial results, please note that (1) her maiden name, "Sophia Jansson," is more commonly used, and (2) the last name is spelled with one "n" and two "s"'s. (Note: I say this not to be patronizing but because this is a common misspelling for non-Scandinavian people). My personal research yields some 1,270 Google hits.

-Thibbs (talk) 17:29, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

←You seem to assume I'm trying to delete for the sake of it. I'm not. I brought this here out of genuine concern. Since you feel the need to throw WP:BATTLEGROUND and WP:EGO at me, can I just say WP:AGF in return? As far as your link to my page goes, would you mind linking to the current version and not to a version that was already outdated (by 14 revisions) when you wrote your reply? I'm sure the older one suits you better, but unfortunately it only tells half the story. The same goes for the links to "my peers". They both suggested taking it here. They did. If you quote, quote properly and fairly, please. Thanks. Back to the article: if you have 3rd party sources or other texts that asses her notability and that are not in the article, I strongly suggest you add them to it. That would help a lot. ~~SIS~~ 21:12, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

In good faith I believe that you've spotted a short stub and have made the hasty decision that it should be deleted as some form of WP:SPAM. I applaud your efforts to keep advertisements off Wikipedia. As I said before, deletionism as a policy has a place in maintaining good order (if not essential to maintain the respectability of the whole project). That said, it is patently clear that your review of the stub and the issues surrounding it was done in a sloppy manner and I submit that the intention of removing the article as fast as possible is apparent among other things from your repeated speedy delete nominations. To give the briefest possible of dirty laundry lists by way of explaining myself:

You stated that "Sophia Jansson's father and uncle are fairly notable, and ... most of the article and refs are actually about them." In fact Jansson-Zambra's uncle was never mentioned in the stub although her aunt was. This is clear from the language of the stub.
You stated that "Sophia gets two sentences." In fact (as I previously suggested) Jansson-Zambra is discussed in 7 of the 10 sentences and implicitly referenced in 1 more. The remaining 2 sentences lead directly and significantly to further discussion of Jansson-Zambra.
You stated that "she's a manager at Moomin." In fact Moomin is the name of the series (or character to be most precise) and not the name of the various companies she provides oversight for or the permission for whose artistic creations she has granted.

I realize you might not have much time to evaluate in detail each of the many stubs you delete, but surely you would agree that it is a tactical mistake to allow the creator of the article such a clear insight into your haste. Anyway I'm glad you're not simply trying to delete the article for the sake of it. I must admit some confusion as to your continued interest in it post nomination but if I've assumed bad faith then I apologize. For all I know your concerted efforts may simply be designed to highlight the need for expansion of the stub or to gain consensus for its existence that may be referenced in later matters. Whatever the case, as far as I can see so far there have been no objections to the stub except from you whereas two peers (I'm not sure why you would have placed quotes around them... they are peers are they not?) have been instrumental in blocking deletion, I have found an editor who appears to give implicit approval of the article (Note: I have moved this to the bottom and outdented it again as a pseudo-3rd party view), and of course I am in favor of keeping it. The AfD has been placed on the Business, Finland, and Comic AfD lists and has thus far escaped any calls for deletion. It might be worth considering placing it on the Sweden AfD list as well since the relevant series is Swedish-Finnish and may in fact be more popular in Sweden. I recognize that both peer editors who blocked the speedy delete also suggested AfD but considering their attention was only drawn to the article as a result of your speedy delete nomination I'd say the presumption of deletability was pretty strongly in your favor at the time and their blocking a speedy delete speaks louder than their suggestion of a compromise AfD.

Finally, as far as your suggestion that I have selectively misconstrued your userpage, I can assure you that you've completely missed my point. The diff I provided as a link to your page contained the line to which I had referred just prior. Specifically the diff I linked was the edit in which you added the line that currently adorns your current userpage: "The trophies of a deletionista. (Hey, other people put moose heads on their walls.)" I may have offended you by suggesting that ego shouldn't play a part in AfDs, but your accusations that I had violated WP:AGF coupled with your lack of good faith concerning my references to your page and your suggestions that an older version suited my purposes better seem to constitute a POINT edit.

To answer your topical complaints that 3rd party references should be added I will gladly comply. As it stands the 10 sentences that make up the stub are already referenced by 7 strong 3rd party citations (one is used twice for a total of 8 citations), but if it will support the validity of the article in your eyes then I will add them all. There is, in fact, more substantive information to be added as well and I will try to add all of this tomorrow. The reason I had held back was to allow an un-tampered-with version for public scrutiny but you are correct that my case could only be enhanced by greater citation and a filling-out of the body of the stub. I will address this as soon as I can and hopefully I can convince you of the merits of the article. -Thibbs (talk) 23:24, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your continious comments about my other WP contributions and my userpage are becoming a little tiresome, to be honest. I fail to see how they contribute to establishing Jansson's notability. Don't shoot the messenger and let's stick to the subject, please. If you want to discuss my work, please do so on my Talk page. Thanks. ~~SIS~~ 10:53, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm assuming good faith and I hope you are as well. Consider it from my perspective: The whole thing seemed to come on much more strongly than I am used to considering the stub had only been up for a few days, was reliably cited, and appeared to have been gone over hastily with a pre-conclusion of "delete." I think we can both clearly see where we're coming from now and I agree to return strictly to the subject. -Thibbs (talk) 12:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Another minor point, I think it is safe to say that there is an implicit keep from this editor who had originally redlinked "Sophia Jansson" (the maiden name) in this edit. It should be noted that this editor has a clean log. -Thibbs (talk) 17:29, 17 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I respect your arguments, but now you're stretching it a bit. A red link is an implicit keep? Let's wait until that IP comes here and gives an opinion, shall we? ~~SIS~~ 10:53, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think it's that much of a stretch. What does it mean to you when a person redlinks? To me it means that either they expect there to be an article on the topic (implying a meeting of WP:NOTABILITY requirements) or that they wish there to be an article on the topic (implying a sense of notability). -Thibbs (talk) 12:34, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Delete- fails WP:BIO, as per nominator. Change to Weak keep. None of the sources used in the article treat her as the main subject; she is only mentioned in passing. Also: the article itself reads like a self-promotional CV, with several typical (unsourced) phrases often found in such documents, such as "provided direct oversight together with her father for the 1990 Moomin animated series", "became an active help in management", "represented Finnish children's literature during an engaging lecture and presentation".) Afv2006 (talk) 08:58, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Asked user to reconsider. -Thibbs (talk) 20:30, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I still feel that her notability is extremely marginal and that info on her would be more appropriate as a section included in the article about the trademark or about her better-known relatives, but in light of the effort extended to establish notability, I'll withdraw my "delete" - in anticipation of better sourcing. Hopefully, she has at least one article where she is the subject, not mentioned solely as "the niece" in an article about her aunt? Also: Blogs and message boards (such as the Yahoo groups) have no place among the references - the many substandard sources now inserted (including a comic shop advertisement and posts/blog entries from http://rubycafe.s32.xrea.com/blog/cat21/ , http://groups.yahoo.com/group/moominvalley/message/1556 , http://katewombat.blogspot.com/2007_02_01_archive.html) look really desperate and urgently need to be replaced with reliable sources appropriate for use in biographies of living persons). But the article has more substance and since a few of the sources used indicate that she will be/has been represented at different Scandinavian events, it can't be ruled out that she might soon be well-known enough that people might actually want to search WP for info on her. Afv2006 (talk) 23:38, 18 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Businesspeople-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp | talk to me 00:31, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Finland-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp | talk to me 00:31, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Comics and animation-related deletion discussions. -- Fabrictramp | talk to me 00:32, 16 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so that consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, — Coren ^(talk) 02:40, 19 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.