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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Move to draftspace for despamming. There's (weak) consensus that she's notable, but also that the content is an awful mess of self-promotion. Accordingly, the article is moved to draft space. It should be moved back to main space only after the promotionalism and refbombing has been thoroughly cleaned up. Sandstein 19:52, 7 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sophia Agranovich[edit]

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Sophia Agranovich (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)
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CSD was declined, but I agree with the nominator that the article is unambiguously promotional. Re-nominating for CSD is not an option, so I'm bringing it here. Vexations (talk) 13:46, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Discussion of sources
  • Comment - This debate has gone in all the wrong directions. Promotional language is not necessarily a reason to delete the article but it is definitely a reason for cleanup, or severe cleanup in this case. The pianist has been mentioned in reliable classical music publications many times, but on the other hand they have very little biographical information about her. Classical musicians are rarely covered in widespread music media publications, but they can achieve notability from being acknowledged by the community in different ways. I will ask Wikipedia:WikiProject Classical music if anyone there can help out, which might get us some useful votes based on policy. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 21:22, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    I challenge the implied assertion that Fanfare is a independent, reliable source. Buying advertising space in the publication guarantees a review. That's not independent. Vexations (talk) 21:40, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete The sources are weak for proving notability. The article is such a mess with embedded hyperlinks that it almost impossible to clean up as is. It needs a total rewrite to remain. Sentences like "She earned a certification in Computer Science from the Empire Technical School in New York City in 1981." and "From 2009 to 2012 she taught Yoga and Pilates at the Summit Area YMCA in New Jersey." sourced to Marquis Who's Who Top Educators need to go. Makes more sense to delete. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 23:11, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete This is a tricky one. On the surface, subject's coverage appears to more than qualify her for notability. Dig deeper and one finds many of the sources flawed: publications which operate on a quid pro quo basis, personal websites engaged in cross-promotion, labels which operate more as distributors than traditional record labels. Citing badly written articles about notable musicians doesn't help; after all, as badly written and hagiographic as they are, that still doesn't change the fact that they are notable. I agree with Vexations here. —CurryTime7-24 (talk) 23:23, 29 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: This is a decent bio. I think her article should be about that size: a few simple facts and recordings. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:25, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep she passes WP:MUSIC -GorgonaJS (talk) 12:31, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete - this is highly promotional.--Smerus (talk) 13:31, 30 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep: Notability met per Wjwalrus (talk) and Gnomingstuff (talk). Text cleanup performed by Gnomingstuff (talk), Leonmarcus (talk) and others. Leonmarcus (talk) 22:40, 31 October 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    — Leonmarcus (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. Vexations (talk) 17:24, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    Leonmarcus since you left the edit summary "Vote to keep with reasons stated". Please note that AfD is not a vote. See [WP:DISCUSSAFD]]. When Wikipedians say !vote they mean NOT vote. The ! indicates a negation in many programming languages. Please provide a policy-based argument for why the subject is notable (that means: which independent, reliable sources exist). So far, nobody here has managed to mention even one that comes remotely close to meeting our requirements. What those are is explained in detail at WP:GNG. Vexations (talk) 17:38, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    — Leonmarcus (talk) believes that regular editors should assume good faith regarding newcomers. Leonmarcus (talk) 20:57, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
    And reminding experienced users not to bite the newbies is unnecessary. We know. Are you implying that I don't? I'm asking you to participate in this discussion in a way that is in line with our guidelines, and helpfully ( I think) cleared up a misunderstanding. Now, please present an actual source that establishes notability. If you don't, I'm going to assume there isn't one. Vexations (talk) 21:30, 1 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
WP:MUSIC Criteria for musicians and ensembles states: "Musicians or ensembles (this category includes bands, singers, rappers, orchestras, DJs, musical theatre groups, instrumentalists, etc.) may be notable if they meet at least one of the following criteria... 5: Has released two or more albums on a major record label or on one of the more important indie labels (i.e., an independent label with a history of more than a few years, and with a roster of performers, many of whom are independently notable)."
—Centaur Records was founded 1976. The roster of notable artists on Centaur Records includes vocalist Nanette McGuinness, composers Jack Cooper, Wendy Mae Chambers and Marco Katz, cellists Amit Peled, Jeffrey Solow and Antony Cooke, santur player and composer Pouya Saraei, oboist Alessandro Baccini, pianists Antonio Pompa-Baldi, Geoffrey Burleson, Frederic Chiu and Rebecca Penneys, pianist and composer Richard Aaker Trythall, organist, composer, and conductor Haig Mardirosian, conductor Gisele Ben-Dor, ensembles Arianna String Quartet and Armonia Celeste, violinist Kinga Augustyn and Dinos Constantinides and lutenist Massimo Marchese.
Having released 6 albums on Centaur Records, the subject of the article, Sophia Agranovich, meets WP:MUSIC Criteria for musicians #5. Leonmarcus (talk) 02:46, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Very good, I agree that that can be used to establish that she is notable. Now, because that information doesn't give us anything that we could summarize, in order to write something about her besides a discography, we just need two or three sources that are independent of the subject that provide a biography or critical commentary on her work. Does that exist? Vexations (talk) 16:58, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The Wikipedia BLP policy regarding the use of the subject as a self-published source states: "There are living persons who publish material about themselves, such as through press releases or personal websites. Such material may be used as a source only if: 1. it is not unduly self-serving; 2. it does not involve claims about third parties; 3. it does not involve claims about events not directly related to the subject; 4. there is no reasonable doubt as to its authenticity; and 5. the article is not based primarily on such sources.
Biographical and other material are available on the subject's personal website which can be used per the aforementioned policy.
The Wikipedia explanatory supplement regarding examples of non-self-published sources includes the following: "The contents of magazines and newspapers, including editorials and op-ed pieces in newspapers (including online-only content of widely-circulated magazines and newspapers)." Additionally the Wikipedia content guideline regarding published material states that: "...audio, video, and multimedia materials that have been recorded then broadcast, distributed, or archived by a reputable party may also meet the necessary criteria to be considered reliable sources. Like text, media must be produced by a reliable source and be properly cited."
Sources of non-self-published material are available for this article that meet Wikipedia requirements, such as from:
"American Record Guide"- 7 reviews
WQXR-FM and WQXR.org - "Chopin Marathon" live performance at the Greene Space
WQXR "Reflections from the Keyboard" radio show with David Dubal - featured 4 times
WWFM and WWFM.org - "Piano Matters with David Dubal" - radio show, featured 18 times
"Audiophile Audition" - review
"Radio Fantastica" – interview
"MainlyPiano" – interview and reviews
"Chatting with Nat" podcast with Natalie Jean on SIM radio network
"Performing Arts Review" - video Interview with Maestro Daniel Kepl
"Art Music Lounge" – 3 reviews
"Atlanta Audio Club" - 3 reviews
"Clouzine Magazine" - reviews and articles
"Lite Lounge with Dimitri K." - featured in 4 radio podcasts syndicated worldwide in rotaion on many stations
"Music Matters" video interview and performance with Maestro Jason Tramm
Steinway Artists Roster - biography
"Fanfare Magazine" - 90+ reviews and interviews
Leonmarcus (talk) 23:56, 2 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
This is not helpful. A reference should identify a single document. You can't just say "Fanfare Magazine", especially when we have already established that Fanfare will publish reviews in exchange for buying advertising space. Vexations (talk) 11:31, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
All the individual references are already in the article - no need to restate. But the summary listing above shows the wide and significant coverage of this artist. Leonmarcus (talk) 17:06, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
No they are not. The citations to fanfare are 5x to https://www.fanfarearchive.com, 2x to http://fanfarearchive.com and http://fanfarearchive.com/indices/itop/performers/agranovichsophia.html And for the nth time; Fanfare is NOT an independent, reliable source and should not be used at all. Now, again, please show me three actual, real sources. If they exist I'll withdraw the nomination. If you persist in obfuscation and refbombing, I'll seek a remedy for disruptive editing. Vexations (talk) 19:01, 3 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The case against the article would be stronger if Fanfare were the only source, but there are more than enough sources mentioned for the article to survive. Additionally one could argue that Fanfare citations are the independent opinions of individual expert reviewers and not the position of the magazine, which is perhaps why uncounted Wiki editors have elected not to remove Fanfare citations from the more than one hundred articles where they currently appear. Seeking remedies at this point seems unfortunate since the discussion has been civil and substantive.
Below are some detailed citations of non-self-published material that offer support for the article.
"American Record Guide"- review March–April 2021 P. 45-46 (6 additional reviews in the issues November–December 2012, July–August 2014, July–August 2015, March–April 2016, March–April 2017, July–August 2021)
"Chopin Marathon" live performance at the Greene Space, New York WQXR.org
WQXR "Reflections from the Keyboard" radio show with David Dubal - rotated on 7/29/2021, 8/1/2021, 1/21/2016, 1/24/2016
WWFM and WWFM.org "Piano Matters’ with David Dubal" - radio show (have to select date on the calendar) 5/23/2021 . Featured 17 more times 4/6/2016, 4/9/2016, 4/4/2017, 4/8/2017, 4/14/2018, 4/16/2018, 11/28/2018, 12/2/2018, 4/17/2019, 4/21/2018, 1/29/2020, 2/2/2020, 2/10/2021, 2/14/2021, 3/3/2021, 3/7/2021, 5/19/2021
"Audiophile Audition" - review
"MainlyPiano" – interview and 3 reviews – November 2018, October 2020, February 2021
"Chatting with Nat" podcast with Natalie Jean on SIM radio network
"Performing Arts Review" - Video Interview with Maestro Daniel Kepl
"Art Music Lounge" – 3 reviews: March 2016, October 2016, January 2021
"Music Matters" video interview and performance with Maestro Jason Tramm
Steinway Artists Roster - biography
"Radio Fantastica" – Interview and performance
Leonmarcus (talk) 04:10, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
OK, so you didn't answer my question. I asked for three sources and you refbomb me with Youtube? Please see WP:YOUTUBE. Interviews are not independnet. Do I really have to go through all these again and debunk this nonsense? This IS becoming disruptive. Note to closer: There is no significant coverage in independent, reliable sources. Vexations (talk) 11:13, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
I looked, and found this by WQXR which is a notable station on classical music, David Dubal being a notable host and expert in piano music, and she in good company on the program. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 14:17, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
How is a source that only says
Transcendental Etude No. 10 in F minor
Franz Liszt
Sophia Agranovich
(no label/ self released)
significant coverage in independent reliable sources? Vexations (talk) 14:40, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
Did I say it was? I can tell you that if she got broadcast in that Liszt program she is notable. As said above, I agree with drastic shortening, as outlined below. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 15:40, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep but clean up significantly - I have been watching this so-called "debate" while suppressing my gag reflex. Ms. Agranovich's article is a hideous mess of fan prose and ref-bombing, and can be reduced by a good 95%. However, I have been convinced by the level-headed contributors above who have delivered evidence of her meeting #5 at WP:NMUSICBIO, and cases could be made for #7 and #10 as well. If the article survives this process, I volunteer to help clean it up myself. But I will not react to the near-future bludgeoning that is surely coming my way from the person who has spent more time repeating the same argument here than it would have taken to clean up the article. ---DOOMSDAYER520 (TALK|CONTRIBS) 15:35, 4 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
*I promise not to bludgeon you DOOMSDAYER520 if you turn this into the drastically shorter article it should be. I tried unsuccessfully to clean it up, but it needs a total rewrite. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 00:57, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
If there is consensus is that there are indicators of notability, even though in-depth coverage in independent, reliable sources does not exist and that the article needs to be drastically trimmed down to summarize only what reliable sources say, then I will join that consensus. Does that work for everybody? Vexations (talk) 10:50, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
agree That works for me Vexations. You perfectly articulated a solution. Thanks. WomenArtistUpdates (talk) 15:08, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
agree --Gerda Arendt (talk) 16:42, 5 November 2021 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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