Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Similarities between Kerala Jews and Kerala Syrian Christians

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Spartaz ^Humbug! 06:43, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Similarities between Kerala Jews and Kerala Syrian Christians

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Sources Are Not In Line With Content

@theohms The sources mentioned here are not in line with the content of this article. The title states similarities between Kerala Jews and Kerala Syrian Christians. Yes it is true that the article makes distinctions between the types of Syrian Christians but not a single comparative analysis has been done between Kerala Jews and the larger St. Thomas Christian community, only the Knanaya.

I own a copy of a Weil’s source and much of what is cited here has nothing to do with the source. The table of similarities again also is not based on real comparative analysis done by scholars but simply combined by the user who created this article (of course besides Weil’s source comparing the Knanaya). None of those sources listed are comparative analysis between St. Thomas Christians and Kerala Jew’s. Perhaps the only real comparison made in the Weil source is the use of the term “Rabban” but that again is not a comparison to Kerala Jews. Rabban is a Christian title given to clergyman. Whereas the Knanaya usage of Rabban is in reference to Joseph Rabban, that is a real correlation to Kerala Jews as Weil states. The rest of the comparisons she makes in regards to the Northist are in regards to Jewish communities in general, not Kerala Jews.

Weil stating the St. Thomas Christians claim a Jewish heritage is again not a real comparison to Kerala Jews, that’s simply a statement that they claim heritage. A real comparison would be for example the songs of the Knanaya and the Cochin Jews, because those are actual shared characteristics.

For this reason this article does not have a single source that has done a real comparative analysis between the larger St. Thomas Christians and Kerala Jews, Weil only notes a few minor comparisons to the broad Jewish community. You cannot compare sources and claim those are correlations because the comparison is not done by scholarship, which Wikipedia requires. Every source besides Weil’s needs to be removed because those are not comparative studies done between Kerala Jews and Kerala Syrian Christians. Furthermore the culture of a minority community such as the Knanaya cannot be homogenized and used to represent a majority like the St. Thomas Christians, which is what the use of Weil’s source in this article seems to do.

— Preceding unsigned comment added by Thomast48 (talk • contribs) 19:59, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Thomast48 Your feedback is replete with wild interpretations. I have a copy of the Weil source. I quoted several excerpts from it. I also have a copy of the Pothan source cited by Weil. Original interpretations are not made beyond what is described. Both are authoritative peer-reviewed sources. If anything your interpretation of Jewish exclusivity for the Southist group is original. It is also a false assertion to say there are efforts in this article to homogenize the Southist subgroup when there are callouts that explicate differences for this minority group. Furthermore all three groups (Cochin Jews, subgroup Southist, subgroup Northist) concerned are minorities in the localities they reside. ^[1] — Preceding unsigned comment added by Theohms (talk • contribs) 01:25, 29 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Article for Deletion

The major source used throughout this article (Weil, Shalva (1982). "Symmetry between Christians and Jews in India: The Cananite Christians and Cochin Jews in Kerala".) is not an article that compares the entire St. Thomas Christian community to the Cochin Jews of Kerala but instead only the minority known as the Knanaya. This source is cited throughout the article in numerous places as a reference to all St. Thomas Christians.

Table of Similarities The next major issue is the table of similarities created. The table of similarities does not include any sources that actually compare the St. Thomas Christians to Kerala Jews. The table instead simply includes a source mentioning a cultural/religious facet of the St. Thomas Christians which is then compared to a Jewish source mentioning a similar facet. No real comparative analysis has been done by any sources menitioned, the comparison is made by the article creator connecting two sources. For this reason these comparisons are not valid because they are not based on comparative analysis found in scholarship but instead connected by the article creator. Wikipedia requires source-based content and none of the comparisons made are source-based. The only real comparative analysis which has been done is again in the source: "Symmetry between Christians and Jews in India: The Cananite Christians and Cochin Jews in Kerala" which is again not based on all Kerala Syrian Christians but instead only the Knanaya ethnic group.

Conclusion Due to the major issues found in the this article such as no sources on comparative studies being cited (in relation to the major group being compared), this article should be deleted. The only real comparative source being cited is Wiel's but that again is not in reference to all St. Thomas Christians but instead only the Knanaya, which makes the premise of this article entirely a fallacy. The rest of the sources cited are not comparative sources noting similarities between St. Thomas Christians and Kerala Jews, the table itself makes the comparison citing one source on the St. Thomas Christians and one on the Kerala Jews.

Looks like the article is full of original research. Debresser (talk) 13:01, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Article is Source-Based

Clearly you have not reviewed the principal source cited throughout which does perform the foundational comparative analysis. The source begins with a survey of multiple Jewish Groups (Bene Israel and Cochin Jews) and Christian Groups (Northist Syrian Christians, Southist Syrian Christians, Latin Christians, and New Christians). It then discusses similarities (Weil calls this symmetric pattern) between the Cochin Jews and Syrian Christians (both Northist and Southist). Southists are reported to have more similarities and Weil uses the Southists as his primary example and case study of symmetric pattern and parallel development since the Southist subcaste of Syrian Christians is "sharply distinguished". But there are numerous examples of Shalva Weil qualifying his analysis when the symmetric pattern is not unique to Southists.

From Weil p. 181 "The Origin of Cnanite Christians of Kerala": As a postscript to this section, it should be pointed out that the tradition of Jewish origin or Jewish connections in Kerala is preserved not only by the Cnanite or Southist group but also by the wider group of Syrian Christians, or Northists.''

From Weil p. 183 Section "The 'Jewish' Customs of the Northists and the Southists": In keeping with the historical tradition of Jewish origins, many Syrian Christians believe that their ritual is a continuation of ancient Jewish practice. The customs which are believed to have a Jewish source include the

position of the bride standing on the right of the bridegroom in the marriage ceremony which is reminiscent of the verse in Psalms 45 v.9 when the king’s daughters stand on his right hand (Pothan 1963: 67);
the bridal veil (p. 70);
burial of the dead to face east towards Jerusalem (p. 75);
the priests’ black velvet cap which is supposed to be similar to the Jews’ headgear (p. 81);
and the ’Kiss of Peace’ ceremony during Eucharist which Pothan claims was copied from the Jews and takes place in some Eastern churches (p. 82).

From Weil p. 186 "The Symmetrical History of the Cnanites and the Cochin Jews": It is noteworthy that Rabban is a religious title among the Northist Christians too.

It is imperative to review a source and not just the source's title before alleging that it does not substantiate the concerned article. Theohms (talk) 18:01, 28 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The nominator did not properly complete the AfD nomination process at the time of nomination. I have fixed it and am neutral on the merits of deletion. —KuyaBriBri^Talk 20:21, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Christianity-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 20:25, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Kuyabribri: Thanks. This article is original research and should not belong. Thomast48 has a history of propagating original research and self publishing. YaLindaHadad (talk)

@@YaLindaHadad: Are you joking? If you look above at the discussion I’m the first one who recommended this article for deletion because of the issues present. Please do not make wild claims. I’m not sure what this user YaLindaHadad has against me but she always makes such claims towards me. Please do give a single example of when I’ve promoted original research, every single addition I’ve made to Wikipedia can be cited. The last time we talked I even stated to you I can send you pictures and links to sources I used which are all verifiable. You seem to have declined my offer perhaps because you have some sort of bias against me or the sources I’ve used but again I’m happily willing to spend my time to individually take pictures of sources I’m using and send them to you if that will stop you from making these attacks on my person. Please leave me alone and stop making claims against me without evidence. As you can see she has some sort of issue with me, she didn’t even read that I was the first one who recommended this article for deletion. Instead she’s claiming I’m the one who propagated this article. How insane is that? Why would you state that as it’s very clear that I’m the first one who brought up the issues with this article and stated it needs to be deleted. I did not have enough policy knowledge to continue the debate against this article and so I gave up my argument. Please do some basic reading before you make wild claims against me, I’m not the one who created this article. All you need to do is scroll up to see that. What’s wrong with you? Thomast48 (talk)

@Thomast48: I apologize if I have upset you. Previously, on the Knanaya page, you had made changes citing a blog and uploaded irrelevant images such as a scroll that belonged to your family. YaLindaHadad (talk)

@YaLindaHadad: Yes my family does own a Torah scroll and I thought it was relevant to the Knanaya article because the community claims a Jewish-Christian heritage, a claim that a number of Jewish scholars have even expanded upon. However the page administrator said that because the image has not been researched or mentioned in any sources, it’s best not to include it, to which I conceded and never used the image again. You have not upset me but please stop making claims against me, we’re on the same side of this debate. Thomast48 (talk)

18:43, 12 June 2020 (UTC) 13:43, 12 June 2020 (UTC)

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Judaism-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 20:25, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of India-related deletion discussions. Shellwood (talk) 20:25, 10 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Totally WP:OR and WP:SYNTH. Yoonadue (talk) 04:34, 11 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - as mentioned by other editors there are a lot of valid points here. The content is sourced. There is no need to delete this. Some rewrite may help to make it better. So keep it with some revision. Batbt (talk) 06:24, 13 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete There is no justification for creating an article on this subject. Anything of note can be discussed on the article on one or both of the mentioned groups, an article like this as a content fork is noit justified.John Pack Lambert (talk) 17:01, 16 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete The sources do not support the comparison, only the individual facts, i.e. this is blatant WP:OR. RandomCanadian (talk / contribs) 02:21, 18 June 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

^ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Thomas_Christians

[1] ttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Thomas_Christians

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