Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sayyid Ihsanullah Shah Rashdi

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. ✗plicit 00:29, 28 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Ihsanullah Shah Rashdi[edit]

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Ihsanullah Shah Rashdi (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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A border line accept at WP:AFC with a passionate SPA creator. Not at all clear how they pass WP:GNG, apparently known for his role in the Khilafat Movement during the British Raj in Sindh, Pakistan, but the sources are not clear on what this role was, he managed a library and established the Sindh Provincial Khilafat Committee but these things are not inherently notable? Theroadislong (talk) 18:14, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • Hi. I disagree with te deleting. I've added more references, including some in Urdu. I'm open to assisting with any issues and suggest using Google Translate for the non-English content to confirm. SaneFlint (talk) 09:13, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Note: This opinion has been recorded formally lower down in the discussion. I am not striking it out. It is sufficient to draw the closer's attention to it 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 20:08, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    I trust editors will address the confirmation or translation of reference number 1,and 6 written in Urdu. Google translate might be helpful for that. SaneFlint (talk) 22:00, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment declined 12 times and rejected once, before being accepted at WP:AFC. Theroadislong (talk) 19:22, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: I have a firm personal policy of steadfast neutrality at articles I accepted at AFC. I follow the guidance that a draft must, in my view, have a better than 50% chance of surviving an immediate deletion process. This is not quite an immediate deletion process and I await the community's view. If kept, I will be pleased. If deleted, I will correct anything I feel needs to be corrected in my reviewing. Reviewers get better when their work is sent to AfD, which allows the community to decide as opposed to a single reviewer. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 20:03, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Contributors to this discussion will wish to note that the creating/major editor of the article is busy seeking to verify notability by use of references. I am not reviewing their work and therefore cannot comment upon it. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 20:42, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The academic paper Contributions of Allama Syed Ihsanullah Shah Rashdi Towards Religion and Education". suggests that the subject is found notable by (some) Islamic scholars. I don't read Urdu, so I'm at a disadvantage for most of the refs, but ref 6 also suggests notability. I think the article has all sorts of problems, but notability is not one of them. --Tagishsimon (talk) 03:30, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The father of Shaykh Muhibullah, Shaykh Ihsanullah Shah Rashdi was a great and respected scholar, even King AbdulAziz had excellent relations with him and would exchange letters with him (as mentioned by Shaykh Muhibullah in his auto biography present in “Bahrul Ulum” p 41)
Allamah Sayid Sulayman Nadwi wrote: “Sayid Ihsanullah Shah (rah) was a great scholar of Hadith and its narrators. He had a treasure in his library of rare manuscripts of Hadith, Tafsir, and narrators (Rijaal). His yearning was such that he had copists busy in copying new manuscripts from manuscripts of west and east, Egypt and Shaam, Qustantiniyah (Turkey). He (rah) was a follower of the path of the Salaf and was distinguished in knowledge and action” -Tagishsimon (talk) 03:44, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: The quote you shared is from a self published website. Jeraxmoira (talk) 05:28, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Whilst working on the article I too found the source, but felt it didn't amount to significant coverage and was written in a hagiographic tone. Theroadislong (talk) 07:25, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Sources are allowed to be hagiographic. The point is that multiple sources are commenting on the subject. Jeraxmoira, meanwhile, is applying strictly western values to a Pakastani publishing company, which seems unhelpful. --Tagishsimon (talk) 12:41, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I am not sure if you have checked it completely. It is posted by an 'admin' and there are no sources/ references to what is written on that website apart from his son's autobiography, "as mentioned by Shaykh Muhibullah in his auto biography present in “Bahrul Ulum” p 41". Their Facebook page is linked to an individual. Jeraxmoira (talk) 13:26, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
the number 1 reference and number 6 reference prove these article as well. Please take a look thank you so much SaneFlint (talk) 13:38, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi. I disagree with the deletion. I've added more references, including some in Urdu. I'm open to assisting with any issues and suggest using Google Translate for the non-English content to confirm.
I'm really trying hard to expend the great Wikipedia community to our region more closely thank you SaneFlint (talk) 11:36, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above should be interpreted as an opinion to Keep the article. The editor lacks experience with our processes. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 14:42, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Let's collaborate to ensure clarity and find a resolution that works for all. SaneFlint (talk) 15:06, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment: I prefer not to vote as I've been extensively involved in this article, but I'd like to raise some points for other editors to consider. Here is my source assessment.
Source assessment table:
Source Independent? Reliable? Significant coverage? Count source toward GNG?
https://archive.org/details/6.syedAhsan Yes Journal entry Yes Yes ✔ Yes
https://archive.org/details/SufiSaintsAndStatePowerThePirsOfSind18431947BySarahAnsari Yes Yes WP:RAJ British author and publisher No ✘ No
https://www.aleeqaz.org/index.php/aleeqaz/article/view/140 Yes Yes No Has no mention of BDP ✘ No
https://archive.org/details/YaadERaftaganByShaykhSyedSulaimanNadvir.a/page/n107/mode/2up Yes Yes ? ? Unknown
https://www.salafiri.com/biography-shaikh-muhibullah-shah-ar-rashidi-as-sindhi-1415h/ Yes No It looks like it has been copied from a library entry of an essay with no references backing the claims. [1] Yes ✘ No
https://archive.org/details/MajallahBahrulUloomMuhaddisUlAsarNoMuhibullahShahRashdi_201502/page/n113/mode/2up Yes Yes No Not about BDP ✘ No
This table may not be a final or consensus view; it may summarize developing consensus, or reflect assessments of a single editor. Created using {{source assess table}}.
  • The article mentions that the BDP is notable for its connection to the Khilafat Movement, but I couldn't find any information on the Khilafat Movement Wikipedia page or in the articles linked to it.
  • Lead mentions that he is an Islamic scholar but a WP:BEFORE on Google Books, scholar, JSTOR and newspaper returns with 0 results almost and I am not able to find primary sources of his works as well.

At this point [2] (not the assessment table above), Sources 1,2 and 4 are the same. 3 is unreliable per WP:RAJ and has no sigcov. 5 Only mentions BDP's father. 6 passes if someone can verify it. 8 is about BDP's son and not BDP themselves. Jeraxmoira (talk) 08:06, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

@Jeraxmoira: while I agree with you on SIGCOV, I can't see how the book written in 1992 by Sarah F. D. Ansari, British Academy Postdoctoral Fellow, Royal Holloway and Bedford New College, University of London could possibly be considered unreliable under WP:RAJ. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 10:22, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The point I am trying to make is that any source that talks about an event/BLP during the Raj era should be peer reviewed Jeraxmoira (talk) 10:47, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
FWIW, according to the Wikipedia biography of the author, it was reviewed by Michel Boivin (CNRS, Paris) in the Bulletin Critique Des Annales Islamologiques in 1998 and by Seema Alavi in The Indian Economic & Social History Review in 1993. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 11:12, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have updated the table, thank you! Jeraxmoira (talk) 13:31, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: @Fahads1982 and Faismeen: as members of Category:Translators ur-en with recent activity. Notability in this AfD may hinge on the first reference in the article, which is a book written in Urdu. Would you be able to check the references and establish whether there is WP:SIGCOV? Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 11:43, 28 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment The article does its subject no favours - it begins "Sayyid Ihsanullah Shah Rashdi was an 19th century Islamic scholar" but the next section says he was born in 1896. The quote in the "death" section is mangled to make no sense. What were his actual achievements, beyond running a (private?) library? The Sarah Ansari book Sufi Saints and State Power: the Pirs of Sind, 1843-1947 (Cambridge, 1992) ought to be an excellent RS, bang on this very obscure area, but it is only used to ref the litigation with his brother. He has no article in any other language. Khilafat Movement lists two other books, from BRILL and Columbia, that ought to be RS & very much on this topic. Does he appear in either? Johnbod (talk) 18:05, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I've linked to him at Pir Jhando, where he seems to be mentioned (in a rather longer version of his name). Johnbod (talk) 18:23, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A search on Sufi Saints and State Power for the subject and his father returns nothing apart from the litigation. Same on the Columbia book as well! Jeraxmoira (talk) 19:52, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
References like 1 and 2/6 are key sources in a urdu language, offering insights into his work and life. Sarah FD's book primarily centers on his father and a Privy Court case against him, SaneFlint (talk) 20:00, 29 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment: @Mar4d: as a currently active editor who had added themselves to Wikipedia:Translators_available#Urdu-to-English: Notability in this AfD may hinge on several Urdu references in the article. Would you be able to check them to establish whether there is WP:SIGCOV? Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 09:55, 30 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Mar4d hasn't edited for 11 days, so I have gone ahead and accessed the first source (which most of the references rely on) through the Wikipedia Library, allowing me to download the 12 page PDF. I tried uploading it to Google Translate, which has a document translation facility, but this didn't work because the Urdu text is an image - it needs to be OCRed. I have been able to use Azure AI document intelligence to extract the Arabic script, and then used the translation facilities in Microsoft Word to translate the whole document. There are plenty mentions of the subject in the text - from what I can tell, most of the 12 pages of text is about him. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 21:22, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
Could someone review references 1, 2, 5, 6, and 7? They contain crucial information mainly written in Urdu. Additionally, for more insights, consider searching for "Sayyid Ihsanullah Shah Rashdi" سید احسان اللہ شاہ راشدی in Urdu, as there is an article on Urdu Wikipedia. Many websites also use his name in Urdu and Sindhi. It will help for more deeper results on Google as well. Thanks.🙂
سید احسان اللہ شاہ راشدی SaneFlint (talk) 16:33, 3 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment: What may make a difference to the outcome of this discussion is the publication on Commons of two files, currently displayed in the article. I am unable to translate them at all. Thus I present them without further comment, save that the author of the article states that they are part of a tribute, read out in 1923, to the subject of the article. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 18:48, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • @Timtrent: If you have the Google Translate app or Microsoft Translator on your smartphone, with the app open you can point your camera at your PC screen and it will translate the text from Urdu into English. Good luck understanding the result though, given the lack of context! Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 21:09, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    It says Things from Pir Rushdullah Shah Rashdi are now transfered to Ihsanullah aka Fazalullah. he's now a sajadah Nashin. A successor etc Some praising qasida with mentions of Darul Rashad Madirsah being first to be established in Sind and mentions about his jamaat etc hope it helps 🙂 SaneFlint (talk) 21:18, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Leters are NOT reliable independent sources and photographs of them are even less reliable. Theroadislong (talk) 21:30, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
This is absolutely correctly stated. I feel, though, it may shed some light into the reality. It is an interesting artefact, but not a reliable one as far as we are concerned. 🇺🇦 FiddleTimtrent FaddleTalk to me 🇺🇦 22:07, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
True. It just shed lights on a topic. I again request everyone to focus on references especially urdu ones to be checked. REF 1 was confirmed/ checked by @Curb Safe Charmer I hope other as ref 2 and 5 6 7 etc will be checked and confirmed too thanks 😊 SaneFlint (talk) 22:20, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have yet to check that the statements cited to reference 1 are verifiable. Curb Safe Charmer (talk) 22:48, 4 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Confirmation was about subject name being mentioned or being there. 🙂
Please try to verify them your precious time will be appreciated 🙂 SaneFlint (talk) 07:17, 5 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: It looks like the discussion is ongoing regarding notability being established by Urdu-language references, so relisting to give more time to examine and discuss this as consensus as it stands is unclear.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Aoidh (talk) 11:36, 6 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment: Role in Khilafat Movement [3] p38-39, Only the father's name of the subject is mentioned during the establishment of the Sindh Provincial Khilafat Committee. Jeraxmoira (talk) 17:51, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
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The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
  • Hi I think there is a misunderstandings on this mentioned pdf, Pir Ihsanullah Shah is known as Pir Jhandey or Pir of Jhando as well, Sames term For his father is used but here you can see https://ibb.co/ckV9FPP Pir Turab Ali Shah is second name of Rushidullah Shah he's mentioned on it and also Pir Jhandey Shah which term is also used for Ihsanullah Shah Rashdi, more about his achievements are mentioned in a reference nnumber1.
    You can confirm Pir Jhandey Wala term being used for Ihsanullah in a reference number 1 page number 10, hope it helps 🙂 SaneFlint (talk) 18:22, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    p39 reads It was presided over by Pir Syed Abu Turab Muhammad Rashdullah Shah, Popularly known as Pir Jhandey Waley. At this point, I am wondering how "Pir Jhandey Walay" is being used for both the subject and his father. Jeraxmoira (talk) 18:32, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    his father and himself the subject both were known by same slogan Pir Jhandey Wala or Pir of jhando. Here you can see https://ibb.co/QbYR7bs reference number 1 page number 10, mentions same name Pir Jhandey. Also one thing is worth noting that in a pdf it says Pir Abu Turab Shah rashdi and Pir of Jhandey Shah attended but in a 39th page Pir Jhandey Shah is term used for Pir Rushdullah Aka Pir Abu Turab which was a second name of Rushdullah Shah as well.🙂 SaneFlint (talk) 18:44, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Misunderstandings are not uncommon, particularly given language subjects differences. It's understandable that English speakers may find certain nuances confusing. Moreover, could you kindly verify references for verification? Your cooperation in this matter is greatly appreciated.🙂🙂 SaneFlint (talk) 18:48, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    two pictures I had uploaded on a page were 100 years older were removed. Claim was that picture doesn't contain subject name. Here is a translation which shows subject name on first - https://ibb.co/p4ZS4jd
    I know translations are annoying but some words are worth noticing 🙂 SaneFlint (talk) 20:18, 11 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment. SaneFlint, a significant contributor to both the article and the discussion above, has now been blocked for sockpuppetry. —David Eppstein (talk) 08:09, 12 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Per my previous comment and source assessment above. Events mentioned in the article are merely notable, there are no other sources to verify it and its vaguely supported by the major contributor's word/ translations. There are instances of them trying to add unsourced content and deliberately introducing factual errors on quoted statements (discussion is on their talk page). This situation discredits their translations, particularly because we lack other Sindhi language editors to verify the information at this point. Jeraxmoira (talk) 06:23, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Current consensus is still unclear, but relisting to see if a consensus emerges. The sockpuppetry block of a major contributor to this AFD and the article itself may change the arguments presented.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, The WordsmithTalk to me 23:12, 13 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Daniel (talk) 00:11, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete: Just not enough in RS to build an article. I get how passionate people are about this, but I don't see notability with the sources given. Oaktree b (talk) 01:56, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
    Source table above only has one good source, a few more and we'd be notable. Oaktree b (talk) 01:57, 21 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per Oaktree lacks indepth coverage.Pharaoh of the Wizards (talk) 10:37, 26 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Per Oaktree b, lack in-depth coverage and having no information in books also, i searched about the subject. I searched in urdu “ احسان اللہ شاہ راشدی” also to have a look at urdu books but found nothing. — Syed A. Hussain Quadri (talk) 15:29, 27 December 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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