Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sarah Winter

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. JGHowes ^talk 02:52, 19 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Sarah Winter

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

This smells like a hoax. A speedy was declined shortly after creation; as far as I can tell, the referenced sources either don't exist or don't mention Ms. Winter. The page creator has also written various other suspicious articles. Cheers, gnu 57 19:47, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Women-related deletion discussions. gnu 57 19:47, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. gnu 57 19:47, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politics-related deletion discussions. gnu 57 19:47, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I can find some references about her on Brazilian and Portuguese media outlets, like, here and here. I also found an academic work citing her here (in Portuguese), but nothing else.--SirEdimon ^Dimmi!!! 21:07, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- SirEdimon, that's a different Sara(h) Winter. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 21:12, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - DiamondRemley39 The articles are about Sara Winter, a known activist in Brazil, but they do mention Sarah Winter. At this source, for example, they say: "Nascida com o nome Sara Fernanda Giromini, assumiu o pseudónimo usado na primeira metade do século passado por Sarah Domville-Taylor, espia britânica pró-nazi" ("Born as Sara Fernanda Giromini, she assumed the pseudonym used in the first half of the past century by Sarah Domville-Taylor, a pro-nazi British spy").--SirEdimon ^Dimmi!!! 21:30, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    - SirEdimon, gotcha. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 21:33, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment I don't think we should give these sources much credit, I speak Portuguese and Veja is simply quoting a petition. I suspect that this is a very bad case of a Wikipedia hoax that transpired into the real world. We should look into sources about British spies and fascists, specially if the page was created with the wording "was a noted British Nazi Supporter" back in 2010; well, if she was so noted let us see those pre-2010 sources, not sources who may have been misled by an established Wikipedia article. RetiredDuke (talk) 12:37, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I've requested 2 or 3 of the books mentioned through my local library; I'll see if there are indeed mentions of Winter. I am concerned that when I google the name of the journal, only hits for this article (here and at mirror sites) show up, though it could be that the name of the journal is not given correctly. Will update the article and the AfD accordingly when I know more. Looking forward to seeing what others find. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 21:15, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment It looks suspicious, certainly. And there is something out of the ordinary with the editing of the article creator and possible use of sock puppets.

- It is suggested that Sara Winter is named after her, and the article there mentions her. However, the suggestions may have their origin in this article.
- A book used as a source by a mysterious SPA editor, who appeared from nowhere immediately after the article was first tagged as a hoax, can be searched here and doesn't appear to mention her at all.
- All other references I can find online (once filtering out the Brazilian namesake) appear to either be copies of, or sourced from, the Wikipedia article, or from 48 Belgrave Square, which was created by the same editor. This is concerning.
Sources for 48 Belgrave Square are equally elusive.

So I'm not calling it either way, but something not quite right. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 21:22, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Good catch on the 48 Belgrave Square article. It's funny that there are books by the same (main) title but different authors... when I can't find anything on the sources or even the authors of the 48 Belgrave Square article. Really pointing towards hoax editing. Golly, hope to get these sources to check by the weekend! DiamondRemley39 (talk) 21:40, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Pinging @Fram:, who discovered a related hoax at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Thomas Winter, 2nd Baronet. Cheers, gnu 57 21:44, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment I also suspect Christopher Hamilton of being a hoax... DiamondRemley39 (talk) 21:57, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- We should give a really good look in all the articles created by this editor.--SirEdimon ^Dimmi!!! 22:03, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - I've taken a look at Christopher Hamilton, and I can't find verification of any of that. I've listed it for deletion. Hog Farm _Bacon 04:10, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  - Red flags, red flags everywhere. There's still a chance these articles are not hoaxes, or are maybe just faking sources. But unless solid accounts are found in cited books, every article created by Worcester1 is questionable. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 09:57, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. As mentioned above preview of one source, brief overviews of British women fascists, doesn't appear to list her, but does have many another Nazi sympathizer, etc. And checking out the only non-WP thing out there shows that the sources, which were emails from the Winter family and PeoplePill, came mere days after the creation of this article. Further pointing to hoax. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 11:02, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
- That thepeerage.com source makes me think that the hoaxer was trying to create a colourful family background for himself. It's unfortunate that the hoax had real world consequences for the other Sara Winter. (I don't know whether she chose her pseudonym before or after the article was created; but it's unlikely that she stumbled across this goofy and obscure English-language Wikipedia article in 2010 or 2011 and decided to name herself after it.) Cheers, gnu 57 13:46, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - I can find evidence that the reference "Grayson, Timothy (1986). "A Fascist in Pershore? The Extraordinary Sarah Winter". Worcestershire History Society Journal." exists. I'm only finding references to it on WP mirrors. This looks really fishy. Hog Farm _Bacon 20:25, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Strong delete I got a copy of My Father's Keeper: How Nazis' Children Grew up with Their Parent's Guilt. It isn't indexed, so I skimmed the pages. No mention of Winter whatsoever. See the discussions in the related articles for further evidence of hoax creation. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 17:10, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per DiamondRemley39.--SirEdimon ^Dimmi!!! 19:53, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete per WP:V. Bearian (talk) 23:26, 13 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - I agree that this is a clear WP:V issue Spiderone 22:25, 14 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - Even if not a hoax (which it looks increasingly like being) the notability of this person is unconvincing without any unquestioned sources. --Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 11:30, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comment

A list of articles that User:Worcester1 has involvement in and other dubious related issues.

Sarah Winter - may have been real person, but content almost certainly hoax
48 Belgrave Square - Real place, but content likely entirely hoax
Winter baronets - May be accurate now, but very likely started out with hoax material.
Christopher Hamilton - Possible hoax
Michael Winter (professor) - appears to be real, notable person, but needs thorough fact check.

See this previous deletion discussion that pretty much follows the exact same hoax trail. Particularly this statement by Worcester1.

"I am a the Winter family historian paid for by a distant family. I have been in contact with several members of the family in America who told me everything about the baronetcy which I know with the help of (talk) is now extent and I am sorry for giving wrong information. In regard to Btdwinter, Bradford Winter is the 10 year old son of the family I am in contact with in America and has apparently mucked around on wikipedia a lot so he can not be blamed due to his age. The family in America do not know Prof. Winter but he is a very notable academic and there is a legend that his family is descended from the Winters/Wintours but through an illegitimate line, I have been in contact with him today and he had no idea he was even on wikipedia and has asked that his entry NOT BE DELETED but that the parts about his ancestry to be deleted as he himself agrees that there is not enough research to support his family's claims and he does not wish for them to be there. I am very sorry that I submitted wrong information but I was doing so on the authority of my clients. The page on Sir George Winter and Winter baronets should be continued."

So, if not a hoax, certainly original research by paid editor. Professor Michael Winter appears to be an entirely innocent third party being co-opted into someone's rather fanciful family tree.

Contributions from possible Socks;

Angela.lyon
Trebarried
Possible IP Sock in 2010
Btdwinter - although above it is claimed he is "10 year old son of the family"

--Escape Orbit ^(Talk) 12:09, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for posting all that here. I call bologna on Btdwinter being 10 years old... he would have been about 7-8 when he wrote the Michael Winter article. I am not confident that this editor talked to Michael Winter either. I haven't looked closely at that article, but it should certainly be scrutinized. It's a shame this editor got away with this hoax for 10 years. DiamondRemley39 (talk) 15:11, 17 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

Please note the article published in November of 2023 is about a completely different person. Thank you.