Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Sa ad Ibraham Sa ad Al Bidna

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. Consensus is that the article does not meet the notability guidelines. Davewild (talk) 18:55, 4 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sa ad Ibraham Sa ad Al Bidna[edit]

Sa ad Ibraham Sa ad Al Bidna (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • Stats)
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On a Guantanamo prisoner with no coverage at all. Fails WP:GNG, WP:BIO. May fail WP:BLP1E as well if we consider release from Guantanamo as a single notable event. There is already a list Saudi detainees at Guantanamo Bay giving the same info. DBigXray 08:10, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

After AfD nomination the article has been filled by the creator with content and primary sources related to the case proceedings of the subject (Wikipedia:Reliable_sources/Noticeboard/Archive_84#Reliability_of_US_military_summary_reports ), The article so far does not even have a single secondary source to establish notability and does not deserve a separate article.--DBigXray 17:31, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Saudi Arabia-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:36, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Military-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:36, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Terrorism-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:36, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Crime-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:37, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 23:37, 19 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, subject does not appear to be independently notable as an individual. --RightCowLeftCoast (talk) 15:02, 21 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete fails WP:BLP1E, and much of the article appears to actually be largely a WP:COATRACK attack on the broader 'judicial' process which applied to prisoners held at Guantanamo Bay (I actually agree with the criticisms of this process, but this sure isn't the way to cover them). Nick-D (talk) 11:32, 24 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • The WP:COATRACK essay advances some interesting ideas. The odd thing about the essay is how often it is cited in {{afd}} in ways inconsistent with the advice in the essay. If you are interested in discussing how and where we cover the administrative process whereby the Guantanamo captive had their statuses reviewed, possibly triggering a recommendation they be cleared for release, by all means lets discuss that. An {{afd}} is not the appropriate place to discuss this issue.

      Please note COATRACK does not recommend deletion as the first solution for perceived instance of COATRACK concerns. Rather COATRACK recommends deletion should be a very last resort when talk page discussion and our other means for contributors to raise concerns have failed.

      You called the review process a judicial process. I corrected you, and described it as an administrative process. Captives routinely asked the officers on the Review boards why they were not allowed to consult a lawyer. They always got the same answer -- that the review boards were not judicial, that they were merely “administrative”. I know you have read many of these article. That you have misunderstood this key point seems to me to be a strong argument for changing how that aspect of the reviews is covered. Can we please discuss this general question elsewhere? Geo Swan (talk) 14:03, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep -- I am sure there are good faith reasons why this nomination contains inaccuracies. The most important inaccuracy is that “The article so far does not even have a single secondary source to establish notability and does not deserve a separate article.” After his release at least two interviews with al Bidna were published. Al Riyadh seems to have been in an important Saudi magazine. Excerpts from these interviews have been translated into English, and re-published. I cited those sources. Geo Swan (talk) 13:41, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment at creator Geo Swan. Following WP:V Please produce the secondary sources that claim his notability, the links you have added are dead links with none linking to Al Riyadh and your claims above are unverified.--DBigXray 13:49, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  1. Andy Worthington (2011-11-02). "Saad Al Bidna (ISN 337)". Cageprisoners. Retrieved 2012-06-21. Noting that it was stated that he had "admitted to being a terrorist," he said that he made that statement when he was "frustrated and extremely mad and being sarcastic," when he "threw his hands up, and said, 'all right, you got me, I'm a terrorist.'"
  2. "Online Fatwas Incite Young Muslims to Jihad". American Islamic Forum for Democracy. 2006-10-26. Retrieved 2012-06-20.
These references were in the Sa ad Ibraham Sa ad Al Bidna#Background section. Geo Swan (talk) 14:12, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment Thanks for the links Geo, sadly both of them are unable to establish Notability here
  1. [1] Primary source on Guantanamo Prisoners with its routine articles, does not establish Notability.
  2. [2] Dead link (unverified) .--DBigXray 15:18, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Worthington is a historian and journalist. If he were Guantanamo captive, reporting on what he personally experienced, or if he was a US official, reporting on his or her own activities, I would agree he would be a primary source. He is however an independent observer who read and analyzed material others wrote about Guantanamo. He is highly respected and widely quoted. I would think all experienced contributors would recognize this makes him both an RS and a secondary source.

    The AIF link has gone 404 in the days since I first used it. I will look for an alternate URL. Geo Swan (talk) 20:24, 26 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Elan Journo (2009). Winning the Unwinnable War: America's Self-Crippled Response to Islamic Totalitarianism. Lexington Books. p. 205. ISBN 9780739135426. Retrieved 2012-06-26. Saad Ibraham Saad al Bidna was among the holy warriors swept up by U.S. forces and held at Guantanamo for four years.After his release, he explained to an interviewer what set him off on his religious struggle:

    Many may find it difficult to believe, but I was not very devout, though I did pray regularly. But enthusiasm and zeal filled the hearts of many young people, and unfortunately, I followed certain fatwas that were posted on the INternet. [These fatwas] call upon young people to wage jihad in certain regions. They tempt them by describing the great rewards they will receive, the status of the martyrs in Paradise and the virgins that await [them there].

  • Andy Worthington (2007). The Guantanao Files. Pluto Press. pp. 52–53. ISBN 978 0 7453 2665 8. He said he now knew that what he did was wrong -- although he also pointed out that, when he was in Afghanistan, 'what concerned me the most was that Muslims were fighting each other, and that is why I left and went to Pakistan, for in jihad a Muslim must never fight his Muslim brother.'
  • "Editorialista saudita: Evidenti le cause dellondata di jihadisti" [Saudi Columnist: Jihadist Obvious causes of dellondata]. Israele.net. 2006-10-23. Archived from the original on 2012-06-27. Al-Riyadh pubblica anche un'intervista a Sa'ad Bin Ibrahim al-Bidna, un giovane saudita che è partito per l'Afghanistan per combattere nella jihad, è stato arrestato in Pakistan ed è stato consegnato agli Stati Uniti. URLs to google translate expire after 72 hours...
Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion so a clearer consensus may be reached.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks,  Sandstein  05:43, 27 June 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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