Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Ron Kubesh

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. v/r - T P 02:32, 16 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Ron Kubesh[edit]

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Fails WP:NGRIDIRON. Can't find any trace of him playing pro ball. ...William 21:32, 8 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of American football-related deletion discussions....William 13:52, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Minnesota-related deletion discussions....William 13:52, 6 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per nom. He apparently was in the NFL, but he never played in any regular season or post-season games, so he fails WP:NGRIDIRON. ChromaNebula (talk) 00:19, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 00:57, 9 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Collegiate all-Americans generally create enough press to surpass WP:GNG even if they don't pass WP:GRIDIRON.--Paul McDonald (talk) 00:54, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment He was a collegiate all-american at a Division II school. Don't forget these are Kubesh's claims as reported in a newspaper article 35 years after the fact. Google news comes up with zero on kubesh's football playing when it supposedly took place....William 12:12, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
  - I see no reason to assume bad faith at this time. And in 1955, there were no divisions in the NCAA. Divisions started in 1956, one year after he played his last year. If you care, the program is now Divsion I FCS (but that should have no bearing on this discussion).--Paul McDonald (talk) 13:38, 10 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

*New information appears to pass WP:NGRIDIRON having played professionally in the CFL.--Paul McDonald (talk) 19:06, 10 November 2013 (UTC) I stand corrected.--Paul McDonald (talk) 13:07, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

- - - The same article that claims he played for the Colts and was a little all-american also says he was drafted by the Colts in 1954. He wasn't. Check out 1954 NFL Draft or 1955 NFL Draft. We know from many sources that Kubesh never played in the NFL. I'd safely say based on all that it fails WP:RS. The subject of an article lying to a reporter about easily verifiable facts is hardly unknown. Ian Bannen claimed here[1] that he won an Academy Award for best supporting actor....William 18:12, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      - That's interesting and insightful! I don't think we should be using other Wikipedia articles for reference on another Wikipedia article when it comes to notability or even accuracy. I did check the NFL.com pages and did not find the individual in question for those seasons, but it appears that their records are incomplete. However, for the purposes of this AFD, I would be willing to concede that the subject never played professionally. That leaves us with the "Little all-American" award. Is it reliable or not? I will argue that if it is true then the subject passes WP:NCOLLATH (see below). If it is not true, then I see no reason to keep this article. The question then becomes: did the reference article author make a mistake on this issue, or is it accurate? I would ask that we extend this AFD for an additional relisting period (what, 7 days?) to find an alternate source to confirm (or possibly deny) the information. If a second independent source is not found for this award, then it should be deleted because the source has come in to question. However, I'm not ready at this point to say that if one part of the source is incorrect, then the whole source is incorrect. Also, I would change my completely if we can find evidence that the source in question is not a relable source. But I don't think that potentially one mistake crosses that threshhold. Thoughts?--Paul McDonald (talk) 20:06, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
      - To be fair there is another issue: Does being named a "little all-American" pass the threshhold of notability. I maintain that it has in the past and does here. If the subject never was named to such an award or if consensus decides that if he did it doesn't matter, then the result would be to delete the article. I think that sums it up.--Paul McDonald (talk) 20:22, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete According to nfl.com/players he never played in the NFL and the source cited for him playing in the CFL is about fullback Don Kubesh from Winnipeg, not Ron Kubesh an American linebacker/guard. The article also says he was a small college all-American. Even then there was a difference between playing for Notre Dame and North Dakota. Papaursa (talk) 05:03, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Fails WP:NCOLLATH and WP:NGRIDIRON. Being a "Little All-American" is not enough to show notability.204.126.132.231 (talk) 23:36, 12 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
- Comment Yes it is. It is a national award and meets WP:NCOLLATH, and this guideline has been widely accepted.--Paul McDonald (talk) 12:24, 13 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

So you're claiming that being a division 2 or division 3 or NAIA all-American is grounds for automatic notability? I think that's a stretch. Don't forget many of these teams have first, second, and third teams as well as "honorable mentions"--all of whom can claim to be "all American". Papaursa (talk) 05:09, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Please see above: there were no divisions in 1955. The NAIA did exist but this program competed in the NCAA. Plus, it isn't "my claim" but WP:NCOLLATH.--Paul McDonald (talk) 12:56, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

But he wasn't an "All American", he was a "Little All American" which means the award was for people competing at what was then referred to as "small colleges", so there was a distinction even then. There were even small college ratings back then. Regardless of whether the NCAA had divisions or not, there was still a recognized difference between different levels. If you look at http://fs.ncaa.org/Docs/stats/football_records/2001football_finest.pdf which lists "all 2868 players (from 156 colleges) over 112 years who made at least one first team on the selections used by the NCAA" you'll not find Kubesh's name listed. Papaursa (talk) 14:38, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The guideline calls for any college athlete that has "won a national award..." and does not specify all-American, little all-American, or Heisman. As for the document you provided, please read it first. It does not contain all athletes that played over 112 years as you imply. The information itself states on page 4 "we have assembled a collection of some of the finest college football players" indicating that other quality players were excluded. On page 5 the document states, "Some wartime figures are missing." ~~(which covers the years of eligibility of the athlete in question)~~ and the next sentence states, "A handful of consensus all-Americans are excluded because nearly all their career figures came in one season." We clearly need to have better information to make an informed decision. Without better information, I still maintain that we should assume good faith unless there is some other policy being violated.--Paul McDonald (talk) 19:35, 14 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I not only have looked at the document, I quoted from page 157 "All time All America roster". This document contains individual records, which is what your quote refers to, while my reference is specifically about All-Americans. According to the NCAA Kubesh wasn't named on any first team All America squad. If he wasn't an All-American then what national award did he win? If you admit it was as a small college All American player (akin to the current division 2) then you're claiming all division all-Americans are notable. You have no reliable sources to show whether. even for small colleges, he was anything other than honorable mention and I believe WP policy says the burden of proof is on those who claim notability. Papaursa (talk) 04:36, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Several points to respond: (1) Ignoring my comments doesn't make them false. Read page 4. Then read page 5. The document you provide admits that it is an incomplete source, ~~especially during "wartime" (presumably WWII or at least including it) which covers the entire college career of the dude in question.~~ It's incomplete, therefore we cannot definitively determine if he received a national award or not from the document you provide. (2) The article states the award was for "Little All-American" which would imply a national award for a player at a smaller school. WP:NCOLLATH merely states a "national award" and does not exclude a "Little All-American" award or provide any specifics. It does offer a list of examples but specifies that the list is not restrictive. It's not "me" that is claiming that "all division All-Americans" are notable, but WP:NCOLLATH. (3) There is no violation in policy that I can find to assume good faith in the sources we have. We believe that the source in question made one mistake but I don't think we need to dismiss the entire article. I would prefer to find more, as I stated above.--Paul McDonald (talk) 12:41, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't respond to your comment about WW2 players because it was irrelevant--or do you really believe that war lasted until the mid 1950s when Kubesh played? Papaursa (talk) 21:46, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Crap. Dislexia strikes again. I swapped 1945 and 1954. I struck the comments. But the document still admits that it is not all-inclusive.--Paul McDonald (talk) 21:56, 15 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.