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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Keep. Keilanatalk(recall) 02:04, 30 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Rod of Seven Parts

[edit]
AfDs for this article:
Rod of Seven Parts (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log)

This fictional rod has no real world notability outside of the D&D Greyhawk in world setting. There is no information regarding this fictional object independent of the subject causing a failure of WP:FICT. Additionally, real world notability cannot be established whatsoever. Additionally, this is and always will be nothing but plot information from D&D without any relevance or notability in the real world. Pilotbob (talk) 06:09, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

  • Hmm, isn't four weeks an exceptionally brief period to leave between nominations for deletion? But taking this on face value, let's look at what we have. An artifact described in Gygax's first TSR dungeon supplement and one of the tiny few to have appeared in all three editions of the D&D DM guide (there's your real world significance right there). Could use more sourcing. I think a merge to some sutable target would be acceptable but deletion would remove significant information about D&D. I'd honestly back a keep here because it shouldn't be too difficult to find more real world context. D&D isn't that insular these days. --Tony Sidaway 07:29, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy Keep Disruptive repetition per Renominations. Nominator may also be gaming the system by nominating on Christmas Eve. Perhaps nominator's account should be blocked during the Christmas period? As for the article in question, it has good notability and sources. The deletion proposal is really just Bah, humbug! :) Colonel Warden (talk) 09:17, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The previous AFD had no consensus and this is no more notable than it was previously. Pilotbob (talk) 22:12, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I guess you have not actually been reading the article or the changes made since your Pointy re-AFD. If you believe it is so, then work to improve it, otherwise leave it to people that actually want to do the work and understand the subject matter. Web Warlock (talk) 22:14, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete unless someone can show how this article will have real world context and not fail WP:Plot. 11:58, 24 December 2007 (UTC) (unsigned comment by Ridernyc at 11:58, 24 December 2007 BOZ (talk) 18:53, 24 December 2007 (UTC))[reply]
  • Speedy Keep as per Colonel Warden. Also Comment: I don't think this qualifies Pilotbob for a block. The first AfD was from someone different (though he voted "strong delete"), and it's the only AfD he made today (he made three, I take this back, he should be watched, but not outright blocked). If it stays that way I don't see the disruptive intent. --Arcanios (talk) 12:18, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete, it's bad form to renom so quickly, but while we're here I think that it's worth pointing out that this particular artefact does not appear to have any notability outside of the D&D universe. Wikipedia is WP:NOT a roleplaying source book. Lankiveil (talk) 13:18, 24 December 2007 (UTC).[reply]
  • Weak Keep with the proviso that it needs to be expanded and/or cleaned up to a great extent. The article is marginally sourced, but while the primary sources of the original game guides are only evidence of the fictional items existence, notability is barely established by the Dragon Magazine article. No, it's not the New York Times or WSJ or New England Journal of Medicine, but within the context of D&D, Dragon Magazine is the pre-eminent periodical. (e.g. a featured article about a game in PC Gamer is a starting point for notability about a video or computer game, likewise a featured article in Dragon Magazine is a starting point for an article relating to D&D fictional subjects).
Now, all of that said, it is only a START and enough for me to say the article should be given a chance to be improved, but this does not at all mean I feel it's enough in the long term for a wikipedia article. This needs work, serious work, in demonstrating a unique notability of the subject within the confines of the D&D category. Is this the ONLY item of it's kind to continuously be referred to over decades? Is it the MOST WELL KNOWN example of such a fictional item? And beyond all of that, can evidence of its special nature be demonstrated and footnoted beyond one secondary source to a small print fan magazine? Otherwise we're back to playing with the Pokemon Test, where any and all game items try to base their notability on the existence of this, let's be honest, very weak article. It should be kept since some people have shown a willingness to improve it so far, but this is a sorry article in need of a great deal of work. Six months from now if I saw an AfD on this article with few improvements or no better sources, I would happily shift my opinion to a strong delete. My "Weak Keep" is based on potential, not actual, value (apologies for wordiness) -Markeer 13:40, 24 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment As a reminder, that 'past concensus' was: 'no concensus'.
  • Comment That's great, and I happen to agree with you, but if that's the case, it needs to be stated in the article with meaningful citations as evidence that it's true. "Everyone knows this is true" is not a valid argument on wikipedia. This encyclopedia is not about what's true, it's about what can be verified. -Markeer 13:09, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment What "everyone knows" does not require verification. Indeed, demanding source for what "everyone knows," is disruptive. I didn't see anyone here, however, arguing that something should be accepted because "everyone knows this is true." As to the argument, if, indeed, something is common knowledge among those who know a subject, "everyone knows" can be used as an argument against an apparently disruptive demand for source. If it's true. That is, the lack of source for what "everyone knows" may simply be good writing, we do not put references on every comment in an article when the comment is not controversial. But I only add this here as a comment on the assertion, it's not really relevant to this particular AfD. (If everyone knows a thing, then it is easy to verify. Ask anyone. In the case of relatively obscure topics, ask anyone who knows the topic. Is it better to source things, even when they are common knowledge? Depends. Depends on how reasonable is the objection that a source is required. Is there reason to doubt the common knowledge? --Abd (talk) 22:16, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep - this was resolved not more than 4 weeks ago. The nominating editor is trying to make some sort of point and is going beyond the realms of being civil. If you need more reasons why it should be kept, copy and paste all the reasons we gave last time, they are all still valid. Web Warlock (talk) 00:22, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment all the 'keep' reasons given last time were not enough to provide a concensus for 'keep'. And there has also been time, admittedly not a great amount of time, for those who supported 'keeping' the article to find independent sources that would make the article meet WP:N, yet none have surfaced.
  • Keep. On the previous AfD I took a "weak delete" line, but this renomination reeks of WP:POINT. --Paularblaster (talk) 02:10, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong, speedy keep - and nominator should be warned of WP:POINT violation. [Added afterward]: The closing admin. will probably note that several of the "Keep" !votes, including my own, primarily mention the potential WP:POINT violation as a justification for speedily closing this discussion. There are, however, enough ignoring the obvious bad form and commenting on the article itself, which is a good thing, and there are still significant keep-favoring editors either way. I also want to add "per my arguments in the last AfD" for the record. ◄Zahakiel► 04:55, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Procedural speedy keep Per above. Jtrainor (talk) 05:36, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If there is no real world significance or WP:RS outside of the source books for the game, what is it other than game guide? —Preceding unsigned comment added by [Special:Contributions/207.69.137.8|207.69.137.8]] (talk) 01:19, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
A description of an artifact found in a fictional world, one described by standard fiction as well as sourcebooks.--Prosfilaes (talk) 22:59, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • delete I've played the game for years and still it's only WP:Notable for D&D players and fans a small subset of the general public. Wikipedia is not a guide and this can be found in the Dungeon Master's Guide or at an external Wiki like D&D Wiki. Refer to the deletion discussions surrounding the Star Wars individual items and Wookiepedia. Star Wars individual items and minor characters has much greater and wider general appeal and did not survive much of those AfD arguments so why should this badly written stub about a D&D specific magic item survive? This item fails the WP:PTEST and at best could be included in a D&D Magic Items page. Alatari (talk) 17:47, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    • comment I didn't realize that 1 month was a short time for renom. That being said not everyone celebrates Christmas and find Dec. 24 and 25th excellent times to work on Wikipedia. This decision doesn't have to be made in a week. Alatari (talk) 01:42, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep Sources were provided during previous Afd. Edward321 (talk) 19:26, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • comment while there are now primary sources, there are no independent sources needed to satisfy WP:N.
  • Procedural speedy keep regardless of article merits - which I'm in favor of, anyway - renominating rapidly with the same arguments in the same situation bases decisions on tenacity and luck, rather than article merit. That's not something that Wikipedia can withstand. Local specialists, volunteers all, cannot be expected to work on the topic in such conditions; "work on" includes making sure the quality of the topic is maintained and dealing with the problems that caused AfDs in the first place. To admonish and then allow it will still be in favor of it. --Kizor is in a constant state of flux 20:36, 25 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • The procedural issues about not renominating in a short period of time are all about not rehashing things, whether the result is keep or no consensus. Note that if WP were a bureaucracy, everyone would have been out of the office on Monday.--Prosfilaes (talk) 13:54, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy keep Renominating for the exact same reasons in so short a time is highly unusual. In any case, this is one of the iconic artifacts in Dungeons and Dragons from the very early editions and is significant enough to merit an article. --Polaron | Talk 03:32, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy KeepDelete votes based on an imaginary distinction between the "real world" and the shared reality of published fiction and games are misquided. Notability is the issue, and there are countless articles on Wikipedia that are properly here and which are of interest to far smaller groups than the D&D player community. (The D&D player community, though, probably does not need this article, it is for the rest of us, so that we might understand some possible literary or other allusion -- perhaps a conversation we hear -- to the Rod of Seven Parts.) Repeated AfD in a short period is abusive, wasting a great deal of editor time to defend articles that could be spent improving them.--Abd (talk) 05:04, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - actually, that is not true. Dragon is now a third party publication, RPGNet is an industry leading website for critical (and not-so critical) discussions. There are other references, not yet footnoted but in the article, that are also third-party. Web Warlock (talk) 16:21, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Pazio was the officially licensed publisher - hardly an independent source.
  • Actually it is. It has it's own editorial review board that is independent of Wizards of the Coast. Plus it has been established in many other articles that Dragon and Dungeon qualify as independent sources. Web Warlock (talk) 16:20, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Paizo is an independent company, and acquired the license to publish the magazine for 5 years. During that time, Paizo's in-house writers, and freelancers, supplied all the content. Wizards of the Coast, who owned the license, had final say on approving the content, but did not tell Paizo what to write as I understand it. Iquander could better answer that one. BOZ (talk) 17:22, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Regardless of whether concensus has decided that Paizo publications qualify as an 'independent' source (and if the information above is correct that WotC had final say - such consensus would be wrong); the particular Dragon articles cited for Ro7P article are from before Paizo became involved. —Preceding unsigned comment added by GundamsRus (talk • contribs) 18:00, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • minor correction OK there IS _one_ independent source used (RPGnet.com), not zero as I stated above. However, this "source" currently mentions 3 artifacts, but NOT the Ro7P, so it is not providing any support to claims of this article's notability.207.69.137.41 (talk) 00:25, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The nominator is misguided in stressing the fact that this is a "fictional rod" and therefore has no "real world notability". Many staples of fiction (including such fictitious objects as the Sampo or Tyrfing) can nonetheless have real world significance that is symbolic or cultural. The Rod of Seven Parts does have such cultural impact. It has remained a staple of its genre for nearly thirty years, longer than just about any other comparable creation; it has been the subject of magazine articles; a derivative novel has been written about it twenty years after its first appearance in another literary form. Freederick (talk) 23:24, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Besides, I think it is scandalous that another delete request should appear so quickly after the first, and that is should appear in the midst of the holiday season, when many editors take a break from Wikipedia. I find it very difficult indeed to assume good will under those circumstances. Freederick (talk) 23:24, 26 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Claiming that there can never be sources for something is a blatant violation of NPOV. It is not the place of anyone but an expert on the matter to be able to make such a statement. Jtrainor (talk) 13:33, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Or people with a crystal ball! (which is also another D&D magic item, by the way, and therefore not notable. Can we make that article and then delete it too?) BOZ (talk) 13:43, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I don't believe there's any need for such a sub-article to Crystal ball, as anything related to D&D and Crystal balls would more than adequately fit in that one, which it rather sparse right now. However, there is no equivalent article for the Rod of the Seven Parts, which is a unique artifact as opposed to a generic item. Now there might be some artifacts in the D&D mythos that merit articles and also function as Crystal Balls, but the only one I can think of is the Dragon Orbs. 68.101.22.132 (talk) 17:24, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oops, my sarcasm generator must be on the fritz! ;) Need more sarcasm! These dull AFDs need more humor... I'm falling asleep as it is. BOZ (talk) 17:28, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sarcasm is a bad way to make an argument on Wikipedia, all you end up doing is not being WP:CIVIL. 68.101.22.132 (talk) 22:30, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Oh well. In plain English, I guess what I was trying to say is that claiming there "will never be" sources for something is like reading the future, or using a "crystal ball" - one of the things that wikipedia is not. BOZ (talk) 00:55, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep If you are going to delete fictional artifacts, why not start at the top with Lightsabre? How does Lightsabre have any "real world" importance outside of the Star Wars universe? Furthermore, how does something like Victorian Essential Learning Standards have any "real-world" relevance outside its own world? Has anyone in the general public who is not from Australia ever heard of Victorian Essential Learning Standards? The last two questions were rhetorical and ironic, not literal. Compsword01 (talk) 20:15, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
    Comment I think it would be more productive if some of these people who know very little about the world of the RPG and its historical/social significance would pitch-in and help strengthen articles instead of lazily asking for deletion. Many of the people who do support these RPG articles are not especially good at putting two words together in a critical, analytical way. They are often more passionate than factual or bureaucratic, which hurts the articles and adds fuel to the fire for deletionists, elitists, and those who would dismiss the RPG genre out of hand as "trivial". Strengthening these RPG articles with historical information is not easy, as much of the supporting data that appeared in large or even smaller publications (third-party, or otherwise) was printed on paper, and between 1973 and the mid-1980's. The people who have of late who made it their mission to eliminate RPG articles of course know this supporting information is all "analog" paper data, and is unlikely to surface. They use this weakness as a point of attack and as a leverage bar to have their way and "win" some deletion requests. However, the fact that these printed reviews and commentaries do not exist online or in any other electronic form does not eliminate the significance, impact (culturally/socially) or scope of these RPG items in any way. For example, even my childless aunt knows what the Monster Manual is. The job for Wikipedians is to take that level of awareness and quantify it with sources and background perspectives that are tangible and verifiable. That my childless aunt knows about the mentioned manual is significant. There is some reason why a person who knows nothing of the RPG world would know what a Monster Manual is. Somehow, the manual broke free of its fictional environment and penetrated the culture at large, if only in name. Like, perhaps, LaserDisc players: Millions used them, but few know about them now, and even fewer still have ever seen a LaserDisc player in action. Does this dismiss the LaserDisc as an item that never had relevance, simply because it is less relevant today, or less relevant to the larger populace who never used a LaserDisc player or ever even saw a piece of LaserDisc media? Reinforcing that, who do you know that is not aware of the term Dungeons and Dragons, or what D&D is? You would have to have lead a very isolated life or perhaps live in some non-industrialized society to not ever have heard of D&D (or Star Wars, for that matter). Wikipedians who support RPG articles have plenty of precedent to get these articles saved. The task for the RPG community on Wikipedia becomes, find a way to get this information online, in some electronic format (since that appears to be the only "reality" acceptable to many here, which is odd since Google is not an accurate reflection of reality). Find a way to bring quality, non-fanboy editing into these article. Recruit some university faculty. God knows there's many a PhD who has spent (and may still spend) the long, long hours sitting around a table with Keep on the Borderlands and a giant bag of Doritos. They know the situation. Find these people and put them to work. Bring authority to these articles. Thanks for reading. Compsword01 (talk) 21:08, 27 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment It does not take an expert to know that Lightsabre is notable, because it is well known outside of Star Wars, even by people who have not seen the film. However it seems that the Rod of Seven Parts is not known even amoung so called experts, who have not been able to provide any reliable secondary sources to demonstrate notability. What we are seeing is RPG endless stating that every single item in D&D is notable; today it is claimed that the "Rod of Seven Parts" is notable, next it will be Rod of Thirteen Parts etc etc. In my view, this article needs to be transwikied to Fancruft.net or some other game guide where game players can find this information easily, as it falls outside the scope of Wikipedia. --Gavin Collins (talk) 23:05, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • I fail to see how antagonizing fellow Wikipedians by accusing them putting every single item in D&D into Wikipedia, at the same you demonstrate your ignorance by making up the Rod of Thirteen Parts instead of, say, Quaal's Feather Tokens, helps anything. --Prosfilaes (talk) 23:21, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Actually, to continue on the tangent for a moment... Notability is not determined by whether something "is well known outside of" its element. In fact, the Lightsabre article does not include any reliable secondary sources, and does not assert its own notability. Most of the links there are to fan sites. It has been tagged as such since August. Obviously no one has fixed in that time because it can't be fixed. Therefore, it should be deleted as non-notable fancruft. BOZ (talk) 00:35, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • There are literally hundreds of thousands of artifacts in the many worlds of the Role-Playing Game. In Dungeons & Dragons alone, when you consider the endless manuals, arcana, and supplemental publications, you are probably dealing with at least 10,000 or more artifacts since the early 1970s. Of these, only a handful are as legendary in the sphere of the game as is the Rod of Seven Parts. Not all D&D artifacts deserves a page, nor even a mention in the most obscure article. But some, like this particular rod, are pivotal bits of lore, not merely a wand of continual light, or what have you, nor more than the One Ring is a hobbit pipe. Compsword01 (talk) 10:57, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Comment 2 - added more including a novel based on the Rod. Now getting ready to go through some old magazines. Web Warlock (talk) 20:49, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Warlock, if you or someone else has the time, could someone add some info on the Ro7P boxed set from the 90s? I'm feeling that there should be more info on that set in the actual article. I think I mentioned this during the last AFD, but no one's had a chance to fix this yet. BOZ (talk) 20:52, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
If I can. I want to add it, but if I run out of time I'd rather add something from White Dwarf or something from one of the independent magazines from the early 80's. I seem to recall Judges Guild having something on it in thier magazine The Dungeoneer. Web Warlock (talk) 21:29, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Speedy keep per consensus above. Sincerely, --Le Grand Roi des CitrouillesTally-ho! 18:54, 28 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep The sources are adequate and sufficiently independent. But Compsword, since many sources for articles like this are on paper and are very rarely found in libraries, it might help to include key excerpts from them either in the footnotes or at least on the talk pages. It will be easier to accept your expertise , and easier to improve the articles, if we have more to go on. Please don't assume we know about them and are ignoring them. DGG (talk) 01:35, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]
  • Comment - Added one more reference to the Rod of Seven Parts boxed set. With the box set, the novel, coverage in every edition of the D&D game and magazine articles this make the Rod the most covered D&D artifact there is. In fact it may even be unique in this respect with only the Wand of Orcus or the Dancing Hut coming close. Being covered this many times in multiple types of publications should be in and of itself merit for inclusion in this encyclopedia. Web Warlock (talk) 20:23, 29 December 2007 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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