Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Robert G. Heft

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was redirect to Flag of the United States#The 49- and 50-star unions. Consensus seems to be that only the one event of his flag design claim has substantial coverage, which is not enough. Content can be merged from history. Sandstein 10:23, 21 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Robert G. Heft[edit]

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If this biography's only claim to notability is that he claimed to be the only designer of the 50-star flag, this fails WP:ONEEVENT. As it is explained in Flag of the United States#The 49- and 50-star unions, he was one of three people to submit that exact design. This section sufficiently covers the subject and a separate article on him is not warranted. I have nothing against this man. In fact, I think this page tarnishes his name by making him sound like a liar when all he did was not understand the whole truth. This is exactly the reason WP:BIO1E was created, to protect people like this. ---Coffeeandcrumbs 21:54, 5 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of People-related deletion discussions. MT Train^Talk 03:27, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of History-related deletion discussions. ---Coffeeandcrumbs 04:09, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

REdirect to flag -- Not separately notable. Peterkingiron (talk) 17:15, 6 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to the flag section. Not the first to come up with the design, and his claim is already discussed there. Clarityfiend (talk) 01:30, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Redirect to Flag of the United States#The 49- and 50-star unions. WP:BIO1E. Coverage of this does exist - but not very wide - should not be standalone.Icewhiz (talk) 11:19, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
~~Redirect~~(changing iVote, see below) to Flag of the United States#The 49- and 50-star unions. This one is so simple: he has no other claim to notability, his name is a useful search term, and WP:BIO1E, that this can now be a WP:SNOW REDIRECT.E.M.Gregory (talk) 14:22, 7 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Comment - WP:BIO1E "However, if media coverage of both the event and the individual's role grow larger, separate articles may become justified." It seems like there is more coverage lately, especially since it was hard to find anything back then. His flag was raised at many locations. StrayBolt (talk) 00:18, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Weak keep - Heft was the leader of many Lancaster County, Ohio social and political organizations throughout his life and was the mayor of Napoleon, Ohio from 1975 to 1989. He also had a prolific career as a speaker about the flag and its history. This part of his career was removed from his page in April.[1] Smmurphy^(Talk) 04:41, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
- I've put back the career section and expanded it a bit (and accidentally removed the AfD notice - sorry). His coverage is far from spectacular, but he had an interesting and long public career which was well covered in local and regional newspapers in the 1960s through 1980s as well as his speaking career which continued into the 2000s. There are a large number of in-depth articles about him which do and which do not discuss his claim to designing the flag, particularly in northwestern Ohio newspapers; a few of which I've added as sources. Smmurphy^(Talk) 16:49, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Politicians-related deletion discussions. Smmurphy^(Talk) 16:50, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Ohio-related deletion discussions. Smmurphy^(Talk) 16:50, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Keep Seems to meet GNG per sources from Smmurphy. ~EDDY ^{(talk/contribs)}~ 21:11, 8 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]
Keep with thanks to User:Smmurphy for noticing that "career" section hd been deleted and replacing it in article. There is now enough here (civic leadership, mayor of (small pop.) corn belt county seat,) combined with coverage of flag design, to make this a keeper.E.M.Gregory (talk) 18:44, 10 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Spartaz ^Humbug! 08:59, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Redirect to flag or delete: Per above as not notable. Fails WP:ANYBIO and WP:BASIC since "Primary sources may be used to support content in an article, but they do not contribute toward proving the notability of a subject.". Fails WP:GNG and WP:POLITICIAN. A politician that has been a mayor with an otherwise mundane personal and professional life (does not advance notability) has claimed to be the "designer" of the current 50-star flag. The article states, "To date, there is no independent verification of Heft's account". Lacking the before-now-deemed-important criteria of sourcing this would be a no-brainer. Wikilawyering that WP:BIO1E cannot count because there is sufficient refbombing of insignificant sources related to; "Ohio Democrat Chairman Coleman Speaks At Annual Fall Luncheon" (Really!) or interviews or personal accounts such as; "Bob Heft Vividly Remembers Designing Flag" or "Flag Imput Noted From Mayor Heft", leaves us with nothing but the fact that there is "no independent verification of Heft's account". Where is the "national attention" sources? If there are conspiracy thoughts that the feds are just yanking the lime-light and credit then redirect to flag as an area of contention. If we wish to start including that "...(civic leadership, mayor of (small pop.) corn belt county seat,)..." adds up to notability, we have to change all the "rules" to allow every mayor (or politician) in the US, and the equivalent world-wide, an article. All they would need is one unverifiable and possibly interesting, yet actually unsupportable "fact" (interviews and primary sources don't count), to tilt the balance! If we are not going to "slide down that slope" then "my unverifiable claim to a possibly important event" is just that and the article does not deserve stand-alone status. Otr500 (talk) 21:16, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I just wanted to address the point about national attention. I do not find widespread coverage of Heft in newspapers.com in 1960, although there are a at least a small number of articles about him and the flag later in the century in newspapers far from his hometown (for instance in the Baltimore Sun in 1964). His obituary was carried in at least 36 newspapers outside of Ohio and Michigan (his home states)[2]. I agree with the points made that it is not correct to call him the "designer" of the flag (in some sources the wording about his relationship to the flag is a little different; this source says that he created the first flag, others note that his flag was the first made from fabric - if something like that may be more accurate, but that is a content issue that can better be addressed outside of an AfD). I'm sorry if my contributions to the article strike you or anyone as refbombing. It was not my intention, and I do not think I added references to material that was already adequately referenced. I also do not think I added trivial material in order to add unnecessary or subpar sources. In any case, I apologize that my edits struck you as bad form. Smmurphy^(Talk) 23:00, 13 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that the wording of the claim can be worked out at talk. But I DO NOT see refbombing. I do see SIGCOV of this man and his flag design that began in the early 60s and continued into this century. Here are the first few hits on a news archive search:

A star among stripes ; Old Glory designer doesn't like to wave his own flag, Vince Bond Jr. Newhouse News Service. Times - Picayune; New Orleans, La. [New Orleans, La]22 Dec 2006: 01

It was his flag from first ; Robert G. Heft designed 50-star flag as a high school project in Ohio, Laurent, Julee R. South Bend Tribune; South Bend, Ind. [South Bend, Ind]21 Nov 2006: -- In 1958, a 17-year-old student named Robert G. hitHeft created... Heft's creation had 50. Little did either......the flag created on his mother's sewing machine would become our national flag.

THE FOLD, FLAG DAY, CELEBRATING OLD GLORY: [NASSAU AND SUFFOLK Edition]

KATIE MEHR. STAFF WRITER. Newsday, Combined editions; Long Island, N.Y. [Long Island, N.Y]14 June 2004: A32....restoring it. 2) Photo Courtesy of The Saginaw News - hitFlag designer Robert G.......by a junior. hitRobert hitHeft, then 17, was assigned a design project of his......hitflag. He then received an A on the project. hitHeft, who went on to become a..

Evolution of the U.S. flag. Page, David. Journal Record; Oklahoma City, Okla. [Oklahoma City, Okla]03 July 2001: 1. ...higher grade if Congress accepted the design. hitHeft sent the hitflag to his....Heft designed a 51-star hitflag with six rows of stars, beginning with a row of..., the Fourth of July, the American hitflag will be displayed at many homes and...

Visual arts: Star turn: Is it patriotic? Subversive? Both? Jonathan Jones on how Jasper Johns made a provocative masterpiece out of the American flag Jones, Jonathan. The Guardian; London (UK) [London (UK)]22 Apr 2003: 2.12....Robert Rosenblum asked of Flag: "Is it blasphemous or respectful, simple-minded...told the art teacher of a shy high-school student called hitRobert G hitHeft. In 1958,... tHeft took it upon himself to redesign the hitflag with 50 stars. He got a B+ for...E.M.Gregory (talk) 22:26, 15 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Delete & redirect to Flag of the United States#The 49- and 50-star unions. Not independently notable and the target section already sufficiently covers the subject. Sourcing above is insufficient for a biography. Being a mayor in a small town / civic leader does not rise to the level of encyclopedia notability. --K.e.coffman (talk) 06:31, 19 May 2018 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.