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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete. There hasn't been any convincing proof presented that MISL is a fully-professional league, and the subject doesn't seem to otherwise satisfy WP:GNG or WP:NFOOTY. — Mr. Stradivarius (have a chat) 11:03, 14 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Richard Shaw (footballer born 1977)

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Richard Shaw (footballer born 1977) (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log • Stats)
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PROD contested by 212.183.128.124 (talk · contribs) with no explanation. A previous version of the article was deleted at AfD in May 2012. Fails WP:GNG and WP:NFOOTBALL. Mattythewhite (talk) 01:23, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football-related deletions. Mattythewhite (talk) 01:25, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This debate has been included in the list of Sportspeople-related deletion discussions. • Gene93k (talk) 01:26, 6 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I'd recommend checking the many, probably hundreds, of AfDs where football player articles have been deleted as they have not made an appearance in an FPL, despite being contracted a club in a FPL. Here is a random example; the article for this player was deleted despite him being contracted to a club in a FPL (Celtic). I think the wording of WP:NFOOTBALL makes it pretty clear that the subject needs to have actually played; "Players who have appeared, and managers who have managed, in a fully professional league" (my bold). I don't see how being on the books of a FPL club can be interpreted as being the same as appearing in a FPL. Mattythewhite (talk) 13:13, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • I have read this article and have to say that I disagree with the above comments. Possibly Hurried to conclusion: The text in the article has never stated he played for Blackburn? Or at senior level for Blackpool FC. Or played in his Blackpool contract days in a fully pro league. And therefore quoting ( being signed to the club is simply not enough)is not required for this edit, and the article did not state that he actually played for the first team? Quote: Players who have appeared.

The article does state his history which facilitates the article and his journey as an individual currently with significant coverage / evidence who is a professional soccer player playing in a league notable in the guidelines and passes WP:NFOOTBALL as the player plays in a league listed in Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leaguesGoalcity (talk) 20:25, 7 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Professional leagues do exsist outside the U.K not just by the F.A but also by United States Soccer Federation and the soccer games are televised here in the U.S.A like soccer games in the U.K Onthepitch (talk) 16:05, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The United Soccer Leagues (USL) Professional soccer leagues with teams in the United States, Canada and the Caribbean. Leagues currently organized are the USL Pro, the USL Premier Development League, the W-League, Major Indoor Soccer League. It is directly affiliated with the United States Soccer Federation, the United States Adult Soccer Association and the Canadian Soccer Association. please go to Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues click on USL Professional League it is part of this League [[2]]Onthepitch (talk) 16:34, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

No, it is NOT listed there. The only American leagues listed are MSL, NASL, and USL Pro - no mention of MISL whatsoever. Just because United Soccer Leagues organises both USL Pro and MISL does not mean that MISL is therefore automatically fully-professional - that is ridiculous logic. GiantSnowman 16:43, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
yes, incorrect it is it comes under USL leagues. your logic is not researched! its leagues comes under USL Professional League / United Soccer Leagues.

The United Soccer Leagues (USL) Professional soccer leagues with teams in the United States, Canada and the Caribbean. Leagues currently organized are the USL Pro, the USL Premier Development League, the W-League, Major Indoor Soccer League. It is directly affiliated with the United States Soccer Federation, the United States Adult Soccer Association and the Canadian Soccer Association. Listed is USL it has Professional leagues in this! please see http://misl.uslsoccer.com/About/index_E.html for additional info!Onthepitch (talk) 16:59, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

it states The United Soccer Leagues (USL) are a collection of five leagues spanning the lower divisions of men's professional soccer.Onthepitch (talk) 17:20, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

(edit conflict) Please find a reliable source which verifies your claims - as I've said, the MISL is not listed at WP:FPL, and just because it is organised by a company which also organises professional leagues does not make it professional itself! GiantSnowman 17:26, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. Subject has not played in a league listed as fully professional, nor is there evidence of his receiving enough significant media coverage to pass the general notability guideline. The only independent sources cited in the article are name-checks in local newspaper match reports dating back to when he played for Kendal in English non-League football. Please understand that fully professional means more than professional. A fully professional league's players play football for a living, receiving a salary for doing so that is enough to support themselves and their families for the whole year, not just for the playing season, without the need to have a second job. It takes more than use of the word "professional" on pages about the MISL to verify that to be the case. Struway2 (talk) 20:29, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Do Not Delete - Incorrect we are not talking about the players past - The article does state his history which facilitates the article and the story of his journey to the present as an individual who is currently Now a professional soccer player playing in a league notable in the guidelines and passes WP:NFOOTBALL. Are you stating that a professional soccer player can not have other interests, players can - even though are paid very highly! can be CEO's of a company, be a TV commentator or publish a book??? very bizarre statement!! As discussed earlier the subject plays in a professional league and passes [[WP:FPL| which is listed! There seems to be rash lack of knowledge and understanding about leagues in other parts of the world! Onthepitch (talk) 21:34, 8 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
    • Please don't keep putting "Do Not Delete": when the closing admin makes their decision, they'll consider the validity of the arguments presented, not count the repetitions. My comments concerned the definition of "fully professional league", which some of the participants here appear unaware of: namely, the requirement for all the players playing in it be paid enough that they don't need a second job. Because no convincing reliable source for the MISL being fully professional has been presented, despite what has been repeated above, it is not listed at WP:FPL (apart from the brief periods when one of the participants at this AfD added it). Of course footballers can and do have other interests, whether financially rewarding or not: that isn't the point. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 07:29, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
      • I understand your thoughts and comment but this is a fully professional league - players train every day and this is there main job! but your definition is not stated in Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues, but it does state at the top of the article quote: see Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues The lists are currently incomplete and some entries are lacking sources Unfortunately it appears only english people are objecting! and therefore I believe there is a lack of knowldge unfortunately U.S.A sport / Soccer appears not be anyones specialty! again quote The lists are currently incomplete and some entries are lacking sources America is vast each state is basically as big as most countries it has different Professional leagues and the different leagues come under and are controlled by the USA's F.A Please see http://www.ussoccer.com/About/Affiliates/Professional-Soccer.aspx More sources will be added / USL is listed and is recognized by millions In the USA. thanks! Onthepitch (talk) 17:02, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
        • In October 2011, the owner of Mr Shaw's team was quoted in the Post-Standard as expecting his player payroll to be "about $200,000". For an 18-man roster, that averages out at $11,000 per man. Over a 4-month season, $11,000 is nothing special as US earnings go, but over a year, it isn't anywhere close to a living wage. If those are sort of salaries the Silver Knights are paying, then the MISL isn't fully professional. Please understand that while many editors think playing in a "fully professional" league isn't a sound method of assessing player notability, for a subject whose article doesn't demonstrate the sort of non-trivial coverage in independent sources needed to pass the general notability guideline, it's what we've got, and this isn't the place to challenge it. cheers, Struway2 (talk) 19:28, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Owners / Managers are not always going to correctly divulge information regarding wage structures! Again as you stated before your definition for reasoning has no foundation or is evident in wikipedia or the net! it is you personal opinion and is not sourced founded and or has no grounds YOUR statement - fully professional means more than professional. A fully professional league's players play football for a living, receiving a salary for doing so that is enough to support themselves and their families for the whole year, not just for the playing season, without the need to have a second job.: Bizarre personal statement - please contact the USA's FA and inform them that you are correct and that their governing body the the same as the F.A are incorrect and wrong ?????http://www.ussoccer.com/About/Affiliates/Professional-Soccer.aspx Onthepitch (talk) 20:08, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: He has never played in a fully-professional league and therefore fails WP:NFOOTY and has not received significant independent coverage so more importantly he also fails WP:GNG. Hope the closing admin takes no notice of the blatant meatpuppetry above. BigDom (talk) 17:27, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: As an American who lives in America and studies the US Soccer structure carefully (needed for when pages for NASL etc are created) I will say that the MISL is not fully-professional in fact the league is not even close to professional. I know players who have to get a 2nd job just to support themselves. Some of them do it for recreation. As for this guy, there is no evidence in this article that he has ever played in a fully-professional league so why is there a reason to keep. Heck even if there is evidence I would say delete, the article is in such bad shape that it can barely stand. Now a message for the closing admin, take into thought that NFOOTY says that the player must have (hypothetically) played at least 1 second in a fully-pro league. Is there anything in the article that states that or proves it. That should help you decide on whether to delete or keep. Cheers. --Arsenalkid700 (talk) 17:48, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
This is embarrassing NOT AN AMERICAN states born in London - yes might live their now? No evidence of Knowledge of all leagues within the USA otherwise! would not state comments without evidence! 1. which players do you know that have a second job and who cares????. What statement states anywhere that professional soccer players cant have a second job! Of course your so correct and the USA's version of the F.A http://www.ussoccer.com/About/Affiliates/Professional-Soccer.aspx is WRONG and your right!!!!! Embarrasing!!! its nice to know that there are more negitive contributors on wikipedia than positive ones! Soccer players and this individual in this professional league do recieve significant coverage and does not fail WP:GNG. I hope that the admin takes notice of unpolite comments who comment without no complete knowledge of the Soccer leagues in the world and USA!!! Maybe someone should contact http://www.ussoccer.com/About/Affiliates/Professional-Soccer.aspx and tell them as one comment stated that they are blatant meatpuppetry for having these professional leagues! It is obvious individuals are comparing to the big main leagues ie MSL, Premier League and dont back up their comments with evidence!! It is human nature I suppose to be negative and mock a article than to support and advise! Onthepitch (talk) 18:47, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
No I was born here. I do have family in London but thats it (thus why I am a fan of Arsenal). Also speaking of embarrassment I do find your lack of formatting hilarious and also by your logic and the source you gave me the USL PREMIER DEVELOPMENT LEAGUE is a fully-professional league when we all know it is not. Really give me better sources. All it says is that the USL controls the MISL and that is it. Where does it say professional for the MISL directly. Honestly from all these fails I am wondering if you are in fact Richard Shaw because why else would you feel so passionate about this article? --Arsenalkid700 (talk) 19:18, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
  • incorrect / KEEP Again negativity please support, individuals need to be 100% and research the league before commenting! if you are a fellow american please see the below and advise not mock and be supportive. Im sorry not all contributors are as good as you when formatting so please support and help! thanks!

http://www.ussoccer.com/About/Affiliates/Professional-Soccer.aspx http://indoorsoccernews.blogspot.co.uk/ http://misl.uslsoccer.com/home/661325.html Onthepitch (talk) 19:32, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

  • Delete This entire conversation is one of the worst cases of sock puppetry in one AfD that I've seen in my time on Wiki. Whoever keeps creating new accounts to make the same arguments needs to stop. This article does not pass WP:GNG or WP:NFOOTY. Del♉sion23 (talk) 23:00, 9 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]


  • That is your opinion It states in Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues also quote from that page The lists are currently incomplete and some entries are lacking sources Unfortunately it appears that people are objecting due to a lack of knowldge, unfortunately U.S.A sport / Soccer appears not to be anyones specialty!

Please see reliable sources of evidence that the MISL is a professional league 1. The U.S.A 's equivalant to F.A - http://www.ussoccer.com/About/Affiliates/Professional-Soccer.aspx , http://misl.uslsoccer.com/About/index_E.html , http://www.usindoor.com/articles/soccernews/misl-live.php , http://www.usindoor.com/sport/soccer/history/ Fact The MISL is a professional League the wikipedia page Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Fully professional leagues needs updating as before its states from that page The lists are currently incomplete and some entries are lacking sources but it does state on the page the following lists http://www.ussoccer.com/About/Affiliates/Professional-Soccer.aspx and if a debate and peoples lack of knowledge regarding professional leagues of the USA is as you say sock Puppetry so be it! Onthepitch (talk) 00:34, 10 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Sock puppetry is when you use more then one account and some more I forgot. Anyway I do know the US Soccer system, the MISL is not a fully-professional league. The sources can say professional all day long, if it was that simple then leagues in say Pakistan and Somalia would be fully-professional. Heck the Goa Professional League should be fully-pro considering that the league has the word professional in it. See it is not that simple. What I would request of you is to find maybe an online rule book so that the experienced wikipedia editors can look at it and if the rules are good then we can say fully-pro but till then that is not the case. Also what we mean by the list is incomplete is that not every fully-pro league is added and if you find one that should be there then discuss it. --Arsenalkid700 (talk) 01:05, 10 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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