Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Rexhep Demi

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. henrik•talk 06:51, 14 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Rexhep Demi[edit]

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Fails WP:NOTABLE and WP:ONEEVENT. While the Declaration is itself notable, and many of its signatories are as well, it does not appear that this individual is notable for anything other than his signature. I cannot find anything about him in the literature. Since he is already listed at Albanian Declaration of Independence, Delete or Merge. Athenean (talk) 21:11, 7 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep why? Because we have an article for every signer of the American Declaration of Independence and we treat all countries equally, to the extent we can find sources in any language and get articles written in English. Just as with the Americans, it is reasonable to assume they were selected for that position because they has some political distinction to before that, and had lives of political importance afterwards. DGG ( talk ) 01:30, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: The signers of the American Declaration of Independence meet WP:NOTABLE. They are to be found in the literature, and all sorts of things have been written about them. About this guy, there exists absolutely nothing in the literature. Zip, zero. --Athenean (talk) 04:47, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete: They can be mentioned, all together, in one article. No need to create a number of one line articles saying the same 'one of the sifnatories'....
Comment:I can't imagine adding an article for every single signatory of the Greek First National Assembly at Epidaurus. Actually here is the english wikipedia.Alexikoua (talk) 06:06, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. We certainly can have articles on each of the members of that assembly. This is an English-language encyclopedia about the whole world and all eras, not just about the contemporary anglophone world. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:53, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete Another in a series of one-line stubs on non-notable people.--Ptolion (talk) 08:32, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Apart from his signature on the declaration of independence the subject passes WP:POLITICIAN as a government minister. The fact that English-language sources are not available at the click of a mouse doesn't take anything away from his notability. Phil Bridger (talk) 13:53, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep It is one of the founding fathers of Albania. Extremely important political figure. How would an American like it if some of the founding fathers (signatories of the US Constitution) be "quietly deleted" because the mexicans don't like them. We're presently facing a greek initiative to delete Azis Tahir Ajdonati, Rexhep Demi, Veli Gërra, and Jakup Veseli, all Albanian founding fathers, but all of them should be kept. sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 14:34, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Completely nothing in books and literature. Also, fails WP:Notability. Not every signature is internationally important. --Tadija (talk) 16:52, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Regardless of his signature, he meets our notability guidelines for politicians as pointed out by Phil Bridger. The very fact that he is a signatory to a declaration of independence for a country adds to the notability. Clearly what is needed is teh expansion and sourcing of the article rather than its deletion. Quite frankly, I'm gobsmacked that it's even here at AFD. -- Whpq (talk) 17:26, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. It is notable. Passes WP:POLITICIAN. --MW talk contribs 18:22, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Because of the history of partisan editing in topics related to the Balkan region (e.g. this arbitration case) I think it would be helpful if editors commenting here could indicate whether they have any connection with Albania or any of its neighbours. I can declare that I have no such connection. Phil Bridger (talk) 18:27, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
- I have no connection with Albania -- Whpq (talk) 19:14, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - Comment According to the only source given that we can actually check, [1], this individual's signature does not even appear on the Declaration of Independence. Something very fishy is going on. --Athenean (talk) 20:36, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - Comment. What do you mean by "the only source given that we can actually check"? Wikipedia is an encyclopedia, not a Google mirror. Checking can mean consulting sources in libraries. And by "something very fishy is going on" are you referring to the fact that everyone who has called for deletion identifies as either Greek or Serbian? If so I would agree with you. Phil Bridger (talk) 20:50, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
      - Check the link I've provided. Elsie nowhere mentions this individual as one of the signatories. Elsie is deliberately misused, there is a clear attempt at deception here. With this in mind, I am not prepared to give the benefit of the doubt to any of the remaining sources. And if you think you can consult the remaining sources in libraries, go ahead and try, but you might have a hard time finding them (surprise). --Athenean (talk) 20:58, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        So just because the self-published web site of an amateur historian doesn't list the subject you say that the sources in the article must be unreliable? Elsie only lists 41 of the 83 members of the Assembly of Vlora. Phil Bridger (talk) 21:29, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        Calling Robert Elsie an "amateur historian" shows just how little you know about this subject. Elsie is the foremost contemporary expert in Albanian studies. About those other "sources", I suppose you flew to Tirana and used you deep knowledge of Albanian to verify them for us? How do you know they say anything about this individual? Are we supposed to just take sulmues' word and your word for it? No thanks. Way to shift the burden of proof. Bottom line is: So far we have seen zero evidence that this individual is one of the signatories. --Athenean (talk) 21:43, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        CommentThat only document includes the signatories on the first page of the declaration of independence. There are only 41 signatures, but there were 83 delegates. Ever heard of a school memory book when there is no space in the first page to put ALL the signatures? A second page is used. And Why aren't you fighting the other 38 ones that didn't sign and we have as signatories? I'll tell you why: the ones you're fighting were born in today GREECE.sulmues (talk) --Sulmues 22:26, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        So you're admitting that they didn't sign? Actually I've got a good mind to put those for AfD as well. But first let's how this one goes. All these people are listed Albanian Declaration of Independence. The encyclopedic value of having a whole bunch of one-line stubs that simply repeat that information is minimal to say the least. --Athenean (talk) 22:37, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        
        (after two edit conflicts) I'm not going by what I may or may not know about the subject, but by what sources say. It seems a bit strange that the "foremost contemporary expert in Albanian studies" has never, according to his Wikipedia article, held any academic position. How is a conference interpretor who writes about history not an amateur historian? I don't mean that in any way to disparage Elsie, but you have presented no evidence that his web site is anything but what I described in my last edit: the self-published web site of an amateur historian. Several of the sources in the article are available online, and, with my less than deep knowledge of Albanian I can see that they confirm the notability of the subject. The fact that another editor added a questionable source to the article doesn't say anything about the sources that I added. Phil Bridger (talk) 22:43, 8 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
        It doesn't matter who Robert Elsie is. That's not the subject, Phil. Does Wikipedia need bunch of articles with one small sentence that have no other encyclopedic meaning then "One of..."? If he is one of, then by WP:NOTABILITY he doesn't deserve separate article. And if we include information's that Athenean gave us, than this is easy question. Delete --Tadija (talk) 00:07, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I see that this discussion -whether we should keep one line articles of that kind of persons or not- is useful, since I'm thinking to add the 280 signatories of the Northern Epirus Independence and the 14 MPs to the Greek parliament.`Alexikoua (talk) 13:34, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Delete. Rexhep Demi the Eslie source used in his article page does not mention him at all. The only Rexhep existing there is one from from Ipek [Peja]: Rexhep Bey.Eslie source used Megistias (talk) 20:01, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. The fact that one editor, has added a questionable source to the article (in that it only lists 41 of the 83 signitories and is the self-published web site of an amateur historian) doesn't mean that the other sources are invalid. I'll note that we still haven't had one delete opinion here from an editor without a Greek or Serbian point of view. Do you really think that trying to delete mentions of important people from your neighbours' history will do anything other than reduce the respect that the rest of the world has for your nation? Phil Bridger (talk) 20:25, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

- The difference is in the "important". They aren't important, they are trivial. Anyone could have signed that declaration of independence, the only requirement is that they be literate. These articles are just one-line stubs because nothing at all about them exists in the literature. And please try to keep the trolling (such as that last comment) to a minimum, no one wants to hear it. --Athenean (talk) 20:31, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
  - So do you think that they just pulled in a few passers-by to sign the declaration? Ridiculous. And it is relevant to the discussion to point out potential issues with partisanship, given the previous history of such editing from all sides in articles about the Balkan region. If you want to avoid any suspicion that your nomination is motivated by a nationalist wish to rewrite history then could you please explain why you have only nominated for deletion the articles on members of the Assembly of Vlora from this particular region? Phil Bridger (talk) 20:46, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - If these people were notable, why is it then next to impossible to find anything about them in the literature? Once again you are shifting the burden of proof. In the region at the time, most people were illiterate except for the village priest and the schoolteacher. For all we know, this guy could have been nothing more than a schoolteacher (see Jani Minga for example). As for your second point, for most of the signatories listed in Albanian Declaration of Independence, at least something can be found about them on Google Books. I will go through them one by one, and will nominate for deletion those for which I can find absolutely nothing. All these individuals are already listed in Albanian Declaration of Independence. Those that are notable should have their own article. For those about we can find absolutely nothing in the literature (unless, that is, we scrape the bottom of the barrel), I don't think we need a one-line stub that doesn't tell us anything not already found in Albanian Declaration of Independence.--Athenean (talk) 21:00, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - By the way, Kristo Meksi and Aristidh Ruci were from Ioannina, Greece, yet I am not nominating them for deletion because they are mentioned in the literature. So I guess the theory that I am nominating Rexhep Demi, Veli Gërra, Jakup Veseli and Azis Tahir Ajdonati for deletion solely because they are were from Greece has been thoroughly debunked. --Athenean (talk) 22:30, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
    - I have surveyed all 81 of the signatories. I can find very little to nothing on Google Books for: Dhimitër Zografi, Bedri bej Ipeku, Hajdin bej Draga, Dervish bej Ipeku, Zenel bej Begolli, Qerim Begolli, Dom Nikollë Kaçorri, Zyhdi bej Ohri, H. Myrtezai, Nuri Sojlliu, Hamdi bej Ohri, Riza bej Zogolli, Kurt Agë Kadiu, Sherif Lengu, Nebi Efendi Sefa, Hajredin bej Cakrani, Taq Tutulani, Hajdar Blloshmi, Spiro Ilo, Avni bej Delvina, Feim bej Mezhgorani, Veli bej Këlcyra, Veli Harxhi, Jani Papadhopulli, Ismail Qemali Gramshi, Mahmud Efendi Kaziu, Shefqet bej Daiu, Xhelal Deliallisi, Ymer bej Deliallisi, Ibrahim Efendiu, Murat bej Toptani, Abaz Efendi Çelkupa, and Mustafa Agë Hanxhiu. These clearly fail WP:ONEEVENT: They are not known for anything other than their signature to the Albanian Declaration of Independence. While the Declaration itself is of course notable, not all the signatories are. Ismail Qemali certainly deserves his own article. The above individuals do not, and the fact that they are already mentioned in Albanian Declaration of Independence is more than enough. It is difficult to see how their articles can be expanded from the one-line stubs they currently are since nothing exists about them in the literature. The way I see it, if these articles were to be erased, the only "loss" to Wikipedia would be that their names in Albanian Declaration of Independence would appear in black instead of blue. --Athenean (talk) 23:53, 9 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Keep as a member of the Assembly of Vlora, which means inherent notability. The nature of a national declaration of independence is that it is issued by a body that has some of the characteristics of a national parliament and national government. The United States Declaration of Independence, for example, was issued by the Second Continental Congress. In the case of Albania, its declaration was enacted by the Assembly of Vlora, which was a national assembly. Arguably, then, each signatory of a national declaration of independence is automatically notable as a member of a national parliament or the equivalent. Also worth noting is the fact that all or almost all the people who signed the United States Declaration of Independence are also notable for reasons other than having signed the declaration and participated in the Second Continental Congress, whether as political or military leaders or for other reasons. This is a strong hint that the same is true for signatories of other national declarations of independence. As indicated in Albanian Declaration of Independence, the signatories are known as the Founding fathers (Albanian: Baballaret e kombit) of the Albanian modern state. - Eastmain (talk) 05:12, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Comment. A "strong hint" is just a guess and doesn't mean anything. A literature search clearly shows that these individuals are not notable for any other reasons. Thus, per WP:ONEEVENT, a mention in Albanian Declaration of Independence is more than sufficient. --Athenean (talk) 06:56, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of Albania-related deletion discussions. - Eastmain (talk) 05:12, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. He's a government minister, thus this is an obvious keep per WP:POLITICIAN. Rebecca (talk) 11:08, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep see comment above--SveroH (talk) 11:42, 10 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]
Keep Subject passes WP:POLITICIAN. kedadial 13:29, 12 January 2010 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.