Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Republic of Ireland football league system

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep While the discussion seems to have been a bit derailed by missing templates, discussion definitely ran long enough, and there's definitely no consensus to delete it.--SarekOfVulcan (talk) 15:22, 23 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Irish football league system[edit]

The stuff mentioned in the article has been put into other articles at length and there is no need for a separate article on something that has already been included on Wikipedia.--ShedEnd1984 (talk) 17:48, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep The article is in line with the others for (all?) other European league systems http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Football_league_systems . The article I believe is necessary to highlight the links and differences between the League of Ireland and the A championship. It makes the whole system easier to understand. I will concede however that the title is a poor one. I would hope to move it to 'Republic of Ireland football league system' in line with 'Northern Ireland football league system'. KEEP! Fionnsci (talk) 23:49, 6 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Besides the title being poorly named, the article itself is completely unnecessary. It doesn't matter if it's "in line with the others for (all?) other European league systems", that's not a valid reason for creating an article. As your first link shows, the League of Ireland is our league system and its article already contains almost all of the information that's in your article. This makes your article redundant. The only information it doesn't contain is your piece on junior leagues, and rightly so (They are dealt with in Association football in the Republic of Ireland), and your "Current system" table which can be incorporated in to the Promotion and Relegation section of the League of Ireland article, provided it's made clear that the A'Championship is technically outside the system. DELETE! Onetonycousins (talk) 01:03, 7 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment "the League of Ireland is our league system" Not true as I see it, the League of Ireland makes up the top two leagues of our league system. The term "league system" includes non league (i.e. A Championship) otherwise it would just be "league".... I created the article with the intention that it is completely seperate from the League of Ireland and that it should not be confused at all with it. It is not about the LOI, it's about the LOI + A Championship + Regional Leagues (to a lesser extent) making up a system. This list includes the all other systems on wikipedia. It incorrectly includes the League of Ireland. If there is a league below the LOI for which relegation/promotion occurs then there should be a page dedicated to it as well as the LOI. Fionnsci (talk) 11:11, 7 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment You're making it up as you go along. NEWSFLASH - There is no league system in Ireland which includes a pyramid or connection between the League of Ireland and regional/junior leagues. That is a sad fact and wikipedia is about facts. There already is "a page dedicated to a league below the LOI for which relegation/promotion occurs", it's called the Newstalk A Championship, and the connection between it and the League of Ireland is explained in it. Maybe next season the FAI will officially include the A'Championship in the League of Ireland, making it a 3-tiered system but that's conjecture. This is about fact and the fact is, your article is unnecessary and misleading. Onetonycousins (talk) 00:08, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment OK, forget the Regional/Junior bit, true that's misleading as no link does exist (not that the article ever claimed it did). But the article exists to serve the exact same purpose as the examples to which I have already drawn your attention. It's not that big a deal and there's no reason why we can't strike a compromise. You yourself have refered to the three tiered system and I think that we should have a single article explaining the links etc. between the tiers. Not much more I can say.....how about you completely rewrite the article (I know how much you like doing that ;) ). Fionnsci (talk) 00:49, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment This is obviously just going to be a long discussion where the score stays at 1-1. I'm here with my Pepsi, armchair and sitting back and watching the action :)--ShedEnd1984 (talk) 00:56, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I don't think there's a need for a separate article, simple as that. All that's needed is a clear explanation in the League of Ireland article and in the Newstalk A Championship article. As ShedEnd1984 and myself have said, everything in your article is covered elsewhere, bar your Current system table, which can be cut & pasted in to the LOI article with a little asterisk linked to an explanation. Common sense. Onetonycousins (talk) 01:18, 8 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in WikiProject Football's list of association football related deletions. Giant Snowman 18:40, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - no reason why the article can't be expanded to be similar to English football league system. The article needs improving, not deleting! Giant Snowman 18:41, 12 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment what scope does it have, beyond what already exists in or could be included in League of Ireland and A Championship? As far as I can tell there is no formal structure at all below the A Championship. WFCforLife (talk) 04:22, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment There are plenty of reasons, all of which have been mentioned. You probably should have read them before making an ignorant comment. The article can't be similar to the English football league system, because we don't have a system like that in Ireland. Fionnsci can dream up and type all the nonsense he wants and he can add as many random bullsh*t citations as he wants, but I'll revert every piece of it. The League of Ireland is Ireland's league system and it's here to stay. Onetonycousins (talk) 01:27, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Delete Despite the needless outburst above, Onetonycousins is right. This contains little or nothing not covered by League of Ireland, and the system consists solely of the League of Ireland and the A Championship. Saying that the article can be improved is one thing, but I don't see how it could be improved to say anything beyond the scope of those two articles. WFCforLife (talk) 04:22, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Comment Onetonycousins, despite conducting yourself in a massively disrespectful manner you seem to have missed my point that the 'League of Ireland' is not and can not be Ireland's league system as it does not extend itself to the lowest division from which a club can climb to the top. If the A Championship was part of the League of Ireland then there would be no arguement and no need for this article.....but it's not. Similarily, The Football League is not considered England's football league system as there are leagues below it connected to it by promotion/relegation. Granted, the Republic of Ireland football league system is on a smaller scale and yes, WCFforlife, most of the information is available elswhere but the same can be said for the articles here [1]. Why only a problem with this one? Only in Ireland, eh? Fionnsci (talk) 11:25, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I don't enter AfD discussions unless they are listed at WP:FOOTY. If most of those are nominated and posted at WP:FOOTY's notification page, I would most likely argue for the deletion of those as well. However covertly it's done, I'm not going to stand for being accused of anti-Irish bias. I'm strongly for equal coverage on wikipedia. But equal coverage does NOT automatically mean we should keep redundant articles. It is perfectly reasonable for the already existant League of Ireland article to discuss relegation to the A Championship which is the lowest level of the pyramid. The same can't be said for discussing everything from the Premier League to the Bristol Downs League (and the 20 levels in between) in The Football League's articles. And shed end, AfDs are decided on the strength of arguments, not a vote. WFCforLife (talk) 23:03, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment aH 2-2 I see. Looks like there'll be no action taken either way. And I haven't voted yet ;--ShedEnd1984 (talk) 12:29, 14 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - this is a useful article providing an overview of the whole of the ROI football system, although yes it could do with expansion. Eldumpo (talk) 12:05, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep - Useful to keep and someone should expand it because it covers an important part of the League of Ireland.--SligoRovers (talk) 14:03, 15 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment Why is it trying to cover an important part of the League of Ireland, when the League of Ireland is already covered? Use your head, this article is clearly redundant. How can both of you suggest that it should be expanded when there's nothing to expand? We have the League of Ireland and the A Championship. Two thirds of the A Championship is made up of second-string LOI sides. There's already a mention of it in the Format section of the LOI article and as I said before, Fionnsci can expand it and add his "Current System" box if he wants. The rest of this article is just a copy of the LOI article with an irrelevant note on junior leagues (no connection) at the end. It serves to confuse, rather than inform. Onetonycousins (talk) 00:30, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. A valid article which I believe should be expanded to include the Leinster, Munster and Ulster Senior Leagues at the very least. While promotion isn't automatic, these clubs can still apply to join the A Championship, in the same way that the state leagues are used in the Brazilian football league system. It would also be a good idea to show the relationship between the Junior and Intermediate leagues. Bettia (talk) 16:00, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. A notable and useful article. No reason not to have an overview of the Republic of Ireland football league system. --Carioca (talk) 19:41, 16 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Merge content, then delete What is the primary focus of the nominated article? If it is to give an overview over the country-wide entity known as League of Ireland, a merger between the latter and the nominee would be the best solution. If it is to provide a complete overview over all of the soccer leagues within the Republic of Ireland and the connections between the leagues, then merging with Republic of Ireland football league system is the way to go.

As Onetonycousins stated above, the LoI is not connected to the rest of the RoI leagues in any way as there is no team exchange between the A Championship (I take the division as part of the LoI due to the possibility of promotion to the First Division) and the provincial leagues. Consequentially, a comparison between the current modus operandi and football league systems like in England, Germany, Italy, France or Spain, where it is theoretically possible to ascend from local leagues to the top level and descend in the opposite direction, cannot be made. --Soccer-holic^{I hear voices in my head...} 13:00, 17 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Soccer-holic, Onetonycousins himself will tell you that the A Championship is not part of the League of Ireland. This makes it a three tiered system as explained in the article. Also, the A Championship is the bottom of the system and the article does not try to state otherwise. Fionnsci (talk) 17:57, 17 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Wow! Once again, we have a few comments that completely miss the point. This is basic stuff. This article is redundant because its material has been covered in, at least, 5 other articles. See above for common sense solution. Onetonycousins (talk) 00:22, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep: The people stating that "you can just explain it in the LOI article" or some other article are correct. However, that can be said for every article on Wikipedia, like nesting eggs. If we're merging all somewhat similar articles, let's make one huge "Association Football" article and merge every football related topic into it. Sarcasm aside, there IS confusion among those that follow ROI football and this article, while not in the current state, could go a long way to explaining it. I'm a fan of a team in Ireland and I'm still unsure of the whole system. Just because the article isn't up to snuff shouldn't mean it's deleted. All you people moaning about it should rather be trying to improve it. GauchoDude (talk) 00:50, 18 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment: Forgot to add, the United States/Canada has a similarly closed "Pyramid" entailing Major League Soccer, United Soccer Leagues, National Premier Soccer League, USASA, etc. There is no promotion between any of these, yet you can find the article here.

Keep - I don't see the issue. The topic is covered in other articles as it relates to those topics. This - a parent article - allows the information about all those parts to be coherently and analytically located together. matt91486 (talk) 05:38, 20 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Keep - I'm not seeing a strong case for removal. Nfitz (talk) 19:01, 21 November 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.