Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Radio Jackie North

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was Delete. Tim Vickers (talk) 17:21, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Radio Jackie North

non-notable pirate station from long ago Rapido (talk) 14:03, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

"from long ago" ? Perhaps you can explain the policy of WP:LIKE_REALLY_TOO_LONG_AGO_DUDE for our benefit? Andy Dingley (talk) 17:41, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

KEEP RJN and MAR were two highly notable pirate radio stations from the "second wave" of UK pirate radio (Medium Wave, late-70s, early '80s) in the North West. They broadcast regularly, reliably and for a number of years. Their core DJs were stable and long-established, with a considerable following. Their coverage was Merseyside, a large population that gave both of them a significant audience. Both also had an appreciable non-radio presence, with involvement with local record / merchandise shops, local club nights etc. In the period, there were many pirate stations that came and went with little real significance or notability - not these two though. In the context of "UK pirate radio", I fail to see how a station could be any more notable than either of these. Andy Dingley (talk)

Please provide a valid argument for why this is notable according to policy, simply declaring it notable because you believe it to be isn't enough. Bare in mind the criteria for notability has nothing to do with any of the points you made above. It needs to have "received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject." --neon white talk 21:35, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The article cites six separate websites that all describe pretty much the same historical version of the station's career. Some include audio recordings of the stations themselves. Now these either demonstrate the existence of the pirate stations, as described, or else they are falsehoods. Simultaneous synchronised falsehoods which we have no reason to suppose. There is also the widely circulated pirate radio fanzine of the period, Soundwaves. I'd upload copies to illustrate the article, except for Wikipedia's strong copyright policies. If such a station existed, then it is notable according to the current consensus for the encyclopedic nature of UK pirate stations (and if it's not, please comment so to an AfD such as this). Now for low-budget illegal events of 25 years ago, that's not bad going. Andy Dingley (talk) 21:58, 5 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Strong delete non-notable radio station. All citations in the article are to personal websites or fansites, which fail WP:RS. Ohconfucius (talk) 04:29, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

So tell me again, is the AfD for lack of notability, or for reliable sources? There seems to be some flip-flopping here as to which it is. These sources, if we believe them, establish notability perfectly well. Now admittedly there's a problem - they're not the highest of quality, admittedly. If anyone has anything better, then we should of course use it. However the content they contain, if believed, covers our notability requirement.

Now WP:RS is a separate problem. Tag them as "references needed" by all means! However when six separate low-quality but independent resources express general agreement over a history, then why should we have cause to doubt it? They aren't flat-earth theories. Non-exceptional claims don't require exceptional sources.

Thirdly, why are we assuming that these sources are "low quality" anyway? Wikipedia consensus has no problem with peer-group fandom of established communities in a vast many pages over in the anime or horror worlds. Yes, they're ugly HTML, yes, they're hosted on unfashionable host sites. Neither of those though should strongly influence the credit we place on them - that would just be elitist geek-chauvinism, not an objective judgement on their content. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, the two issues are linked: WP:N states that "If a topic has received significant coverage in reliable sources that are independent of the subject, it is presumed to be notable." So, turning it around, if there are insufficient reliable third-party references, the article falls to be defined as not notable. Voilà. Ohconfucius (talk) 14:02, 6 June 2008 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 219.79.98.215 (talk) [reply]

If we can resolve the concerns over the quality of the cited sources, then the stations are notable. There is not, as far as I can see, any issue of whether the stations are non-notable _despite_ the sources (i.e. they were too minor a station) ? Andy Dingley (talk) 14:17, 6 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep. No one has yet explained why the many internet hits for this station are from "unreliable" sources. Ford MF (talk) 04:08, 11 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment If merely pointing to WP:RS is considered insufficient, then you will no doubt excuse me for directly citing the overview: "Articles should rely on reliable, third-party published sources with a reputation for fact-checking and accuracy. This means that we only publish the opinions of reliable authors, and not the opinions of Wikipedians who have read and interpreted primary source material for themselves." As anybody can create a website, contents published in personal websites are "not reliable" unless its authors are recognised as experts in their field, which certainly does not appear to be the case. Ohconfucius (talk) 04:42, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Please direct me to the list of recognized experts. Ford MF (talk) 06:05, 12 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Delete - lack of media coverage. PhilKnight (talk) 12:42, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]
Merge and Redirect to UK pirate radio. Cannot find enough significant coverage in reliable sources to establish notability for a seperate article. Only source I could find is here from the Liverpool Echo. There is enough there to add some to UK pirate radio or to make a seperate article on Pirate Radio in Merseyside but not really enough for standalone article. Davewild (talk) 16:52, 15 June 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.