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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was keep. Frankly, the two "delete" opinions make no sense at all. What obvious reasons? Sandstein (talk) 00:09, 12 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Protestant views of Mary[edit]

Protestant views of Mary (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) (delete) – (View log)

This article has no content except what is in the many other articles on the Virgin Mary. There is no sign of authors knowlegeble of Protestant views of Mary to improve it. Carlaude (talk) 13:51, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

No content? This article already contains more soures than other stubs featured in Project Christianity. More are on the way. No authors knowledgeable of Protestant views? I take issue with that. At any rate, few members of the wiki community have had a chance to add to it yet. Give it time. --Mordecai99 (talk) 14:11, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment Can this be merged or cleaned up? The article is poorly written and not neutral. It reads like a personal essay to me. --neonwhite user page talk 15:14, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Keep for now; don't destroy a house before it's been built. So far, there are several footnotes and sources. Can we wait until it's finished before we judge its fate? The topic is so far an encyclopedic one. PeterSymonds | talk 15:17, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete For obvious reasons. However, I will gladly switch my vote if and when the article is rewritten. I'll keep an eye out to see what transpires. Ecoleetage (talk) 15:21, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Merge or strong delete For extremely obvious reasons. The argument that there's more to come is stupid. More opinions? and if you take issue with any views about the subject that just goes to show how biased and POV you are. All the more reason to get rid of this nonsense. MiracleMat (talk) 15:42, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep or merge Better sourced and referenced than some, and a topic that could be argued to be notable in its own right, particularly when there is an Islamic view of Mary extant, although I'm not convinced they couldn't both be merged into Mary (Mother of Jesus) -- Karenjc 22:25, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

For those arguing for a deletion, please be advised that:

  • There are several articles detailing "views of Mary" in particular denominations and religions (Islamic view of Mary, Marian doctrines of the Catholic Church and Anglican Marian theology). There ought to be one for Protestantism.
  • Currently there is a POV fork that details various denominations' teachings about Catholic teachings on Mary (Christian views of Mary Contrasted), without stating positively what it is that many of those denominations (some Protestant) believe. In the interest of NPOV as well as the wide-ranging, encyclopedic scope of wiki, Protestant views of Mary ought to be kept as a place for stating what it is Protestants believe in regard to Mary, what controversies there are, and what commonalities there are between Protestant churches.
  • It is unfair that the diversity of Protestant beliefs should be described only in negative form in relation to other churches (notably the Roman Catholic one). It may seem counter-intuitive, since Protestantism is, after all, rooted in "protest" or reform; but there are various "new" Protestant ideas on Mary that don't seem to have any roots either in Catholicism or in critique of Catholicism (see links section in article), but rather in traditional Protestant exegesis.
  • I take serious issue with the accusation: "and if you take issue with any views about the subject that just goes to show how biased and POV you are." On the contrary, I would like this article to be as broad and neutral as possible. I would like to include sections on the development of Protestant views on Mary, perhaps a section on the influence of the Enlightenment, Pietism, feminism, etc. Any help in eliminating POV in this article is much appreciated.

--Mordecai99 (talk) 16:15, 6 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

  • Comment A legitimate enough subject for an article, I suppose, but this seems to be original theology, like original research except that the synthesis is on the subject of religion. Author's thesis is that "nevertheless, a uniquely 'Protestant' Mary can be said to exist", and then goes on to describe "typical Protestant" views, and cites one person's article as evidence of a newer, controversial, Evangelical movement school of thought. I think you were right the first time when you said that it's difficult to generalize about us non-Catholics. Mandsford (talk) 01:06, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
How can it be a "generalization" when I noted its controversy and novelty? Let's not generalize about all Protestants, certainly. Rather, let's expand this article to cover the full range of opinions.
--Mordecai99 (talk) 01:14, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
The name of Christian views of Mary "Contrasted" is already contested-- and should change. I have already indicated the counterproductive nature of including the word "Contrasted." Perfect example-- have Protestant views there-- link to other articles as needed.
Wikipedia is not about creating an topic to be "fair" when there is not reason to think the content will follow or that it is even needed in the format of a separate article. --Carlaude (talk) 04:26, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A Polite question?[edit]

I do not understand, why our fellow traveler Carlaude first contributes actively to this (new) topic, changes its name, and then requests deletion? AFTER his deletion request on May 6, our friend was busy linking Protestant views of Mary to several other mariological pages ( see:Marian doctrines of the Catholic Church, Anglican Marian theology, Mariology, Blessed Virgin Mary , Mary (Mother of Jesus) and others. Why??? Carlaude likes to engage long debates on the talk pages of Blessed Virgin Mary and Christian views of Mary Contrasted‎. Why not talk first to the author of the day old article in a friendly manner?

Sorry, but maybe he can explain to us, why a new article, he contributed to, should be deleted, and, why he made all these links after his deletion requests? I am too dumb to understand. -:)) --Ambrosius007 (talk) 21:24, 7 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I was not so such linking to Protestant views of Mary as correcting the existing links to Protestant views of Mary. I had changed the article name-- from something like "Mary in Protestantism"-- and considered it a duty to correct the links even if I had AfD'ed the article.
Any tempary "name change" was inadvertant-- I made an error with My preferences and I did not see for an hour or so.
No I do not "like to engage long debates"-- but I had already stated that Protestant views of Mary was a poor idea, etc., before it was created.--Carlaude 13:57, 9 May 2008 (UTC)

From the History of Protestant views of Mary

  • (cur) (last) 13:40, 6 May 2008 Carlaude (Talk | contribs) (2,761 bytes) (AfD: Nominated for deletion; see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Protestant views of Mary) (undo)
  • cur) (last) 13:36, 6 May 2008 Carlaude (Talk | contribs) m (moved Mary in Protestantism to Protestant views of Mary: Better title form. Parallel form to other articles.) (undo)
  • (cur) (last) 13:34, 6 May 2008 Carlaude (Talk | contribs) m (moved Protestants views of Mary to Mary in Protestantism over redirect: typo) (undo)
  • (cur) (last) 13:29, 6 May 2008 Carlaude (Talk | contribs) m (moved Mary in Protestantism to Protestants views of Mary: better title form. Parrlle form to other articles.) (undo)
  • Strong Keep Protestant Views of Mary certainly should not be deleted. There needs to be a positive article detailing the different protestant views of Mary, and their background. This article may not cover all of that yet, but hopefully it will grow into such a resource. If any article is to go it should be "Christian Views of Mary Contrasted", which to my mind is an ill-judged and confused concept. Xandar (talk) 22:43, 7 May 2008 (UTC)--Yes, Xander, that is exactly the way to do it, but it will take time to build up such a compendium. God did not create the world in one day either. -:)) --Ambrosius007 (talk) 10:13, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Strong Keep. This is a well-referenced article covering a very notable topic in broader Christianity. While the article may need work, nominating it for AfD certainly isn't how that gets done. —BradV 04:31, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]
  • Weak keep, preferably wikify The article has continued to evolve as this discussion has continued, and I am impressed that the contributors are relying upon a variety of book sources. I think that the better thing to do would be to wikify this and retool it. It's a big topic, kind of like doing an article about "what is the meaning of life"; the generalizations about the views of hundreds of millions of Protestants had been a major problem, although it's fair to say that Protestants don't do "Hail Mary" except maybe after the two minute warning; it's a mistake to base the views of Protestants on the actual writings of Martin Luther, John Calvin or Karl Barth, although it's OK to summarize what religious commentators have observed about views in general. Looks like this is moving in the right direction, but maybe the topic is bigger than any writer can address. Good luck to you. Mandsford (talk) 20:58, 9 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

, although it looks like there's a recognition that this needs to be fixed.

-- Strong keep. I agree with Mandsford, the article is moving in the right direction, needs more work and time to develop. The request for deletion was made within one day of the creation of the article without any previous discussion.

Maybe we should have a Wikipedia policy to give new articles a chance - unless they are obnoxious or highly insulting of course. My own articles all developed over time. None of them was perfect day one. There is such a thing as "start up". Let's build up, rather than tear down! --Ambrosius007 (talk) 13:22, 10 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Keep and Improve. I do not know this topic, and would like to understand it. I have been hoping that someone with that knowledge will write more and/or improve this article. Is there a way to advertise on Wikipedia for a protestant expert who will improve this article and do everyone a lot of good? Instead of a deletion tag, this article needs a please improve tag. History2007 (talk) 13:15, 11 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]


The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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