Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/ProSystem (Emulator)

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was merge to Atari 7800. If more sources appear or the article can be expanded, the article can be split off again, but as of now, the consensus is to merge. NW (Talk) 01:09, 28 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

ProSystem (Emulator)

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This program doesn't assert notability. The one reference is from a how-to guide based upon emulation. This simply shows that it is just a mention of the program and its purpose, which does not indicate notability. TTN (talk) 01:17, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Keep or Merge to Atari 7800. AfD is not for cleanup. The reference used in this stub article meets WP:RS and actually contains more than "just a mention of the program and its purpose".
Chris Kohler, an author with authority in this area goes on to state on page 156 of his book Retro Gaming Hacks (ISBN 0-596-00917-8): "If MESS is too messy for your tastes, and you're looking for an emulator that is strictly for the 7800, you have a couple of options. One is called ProSystem Emulator and the other is EMU7800. Of the two, ProSystem Emulator seems to be the most complete and compatible."
Considering the age and obscurity of the Atari 7800 console platform in general (as it never really caught on in the market), considering how few emulators exist for this platform, and considering how few emulator programs actually get written about in a published book, a book by a well known, notable author giving coverage to these is a pretty big deal.
Note that the nom previously redirected both the article and its talk page [1] [2] without any prior discussion or reason and immediately brought it to AfD when it was unredirected.
--Tothwolf (talk) 02:33, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

That is a how-to guide, not a source that can be used to establish notability. It isn't being covered; it's telling the reader that "If you wish to emulate Atari 7800 games, use this or that. Here are a couple of things that can be done with them." With that argument, every single recipe out of a cookbook by a famous chef is instantly notable. TTN (talk) 16:19, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

No, that book is not a "how-to guide" and it is not the only "source" available either. Your arguments thus far have been bogus and knowing your history, I see no point in any further discussions with you on this subject. --Tothwolf (talk) 19:21, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Then what exactly would you call it? Look at the index; every single one stems from the sentence "How to play retro games." He may throw some history and the like into it, but skip to any section and it is basically "to build/play/create/emulate/run/ect X, use/buy/download/ect Y." That is a guide, plain and simple. If you have actual sources that show notability, please actually add them. You seem to have the idea that many emulators are notable, but the actual case is that only MAME and maybe one or two others have a slight possibility to be formed into decent articles. There is no hope for the rest of them. TTN (talk) 19:54, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

How about we first address your creative use of false analogies and attempted redirection of this discussion?
Your "cookbook" analogy is quite creative but References and Sources are not required to be notable, only reliable. Chris Kohler's book is still a reliable source per Wikipedia's guidelines and the inline citation directly confirms the statement in this stub article. Furthermore, Chris Kohler (even though he himself is quite notable) did not write this software – he wrote a book that gives coverage to this software.
You are also implying that this is the only reference available for this software. If you spent more time researching subjects instead of starting arguments and/or arbitrarily redirecting them (and yes, I am well aware of your past ArbCom restrictions that barred you from initiating merge/redirect discussions or redirecting articles, which is exactly what you did to this and other emulator software articles), you'd find there is plenty of material out there that can be used to expand many of these articles.
Your ignorance and dislike of this subject area was also quite apparent when you decided to try to redirect MESS. [3] I also consider your mass removal of links of the articles you are redirecting to be disruptive [4] and User:Ham Pastrami has since followed up behind you and removed all mention of the emulators that you redirected and unlinked. [5]
--Tothwolf (talk) 20:09, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Just because a source is considered reliable does not mean that it establishes notability in any article that it is included within. The book is a how-to guide to things like emulation, so all it is doing is confirming the existence of the program. That is not notability. Feel free to ask on Wikipedia:Reliable sources/Noticeboard for more input. It's not that I don't like emulators (actually, I frequently use them), but simply the fact that these articles are essentially advertisements for them. They are not covered in reliable sources and the information is very trivial. There is nothing that needs to be covered within them that a simply table wouldn't suffice. If there is material that establishes notability, it is your job as the person asserting that they are notable to provide them, not me. As I have said, only MAME and maybe two other have an actual chance to become decent articles, so it is likely a pointless endeavor. TTN (talk) 20:34, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This debate has been included in the list of video game related deletion discussions. MrKIA11 (talk) 15:02, 21 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Not notable without sources - merge to Atari 7800 An obscure emulator for an obscure platform with a few sentences in a large book on the general subject of emulation does not establish notability for an independent article. There are two sentences in this article now and misc info from the infobox can be written as another sentence in the Atari 7800 article. Miami33139 (talk) 04:34, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge - No particular reason this should be out on its own. It's not any more notable than other 7800 emus, and arguably less so. --Teancum (talk) 19:05, 22 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]
Merge to Atari 7800. There isn't enough material in the source (which I am looking at an actual copy of right now) to qualify as significant coverage. Ham Pastrami (talk) 06:49, 23 September 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.