Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Pop Stefan

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The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was delete‎. signed, Rosguill talk 16:13, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pop Stefan[edit]

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Pop Stefan (edit | talk | history | protect | delete | links | watch | logs | views) – (View log | edits since nomination)
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I am not sure this person is notable. He is only apparently notable for his translation to Bulgarian/Slavic Macedonian of Daniel Moscopolites's dictionary (which can easily be covered in Daniel's article) and for his connection to the Miladinov brothers. There is not much else that I see that is relevant. I've been reading about the Aromanians for years and I had never seen this figure mentioned before. I also struggle to find English-language sources about him. I do not believe the article's writer has a firm grasp of our notability policy. They had previously created a separate article for Daniel's dictionary, which is the only thing that actually makes him notable in the first place. I would like the assessment of some other editors, I am not 100% sure myself what the outcome should be. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 02:21, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

I would like to ping Jingiby and StephenMacky1, from what I see this person could be discussed the most frequently by Bulgarian and Macedonian authors and I think their word can be greatly helpful. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 02:26, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete. I haven't found any information about this person anywhere. Jingiby (talk) 04:46, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete – Not many reliable sources discuss the person in question. If he was notable, it wouldn't be hard to find sources about him. He really is only notable for a translation of a dictionary, with reliable sources referring to him as "Stefan of Ohrid". StephenMacky1 (talk) 07:14, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per the points already raised. Appears to be a marginal figure without in-depth coverage to sustain a claim of notability. — Biruitorul Talk 11:54, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete: Other than his work in the dictionary translation, it appears that there aren't any other notability about the subject. Toadette (let's chat together) 20:24, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Note: This article is about a well known person from the Ohrid region. It is also significant because for the Macedonian language he was very valuable. I find it weird to read that you can't find sources about Pop Stefan, because there are numerous sources about him, Macedonian but also in other languages. Newspapers, foreign linguistics books, papers, Macedonian school books etcetera. Maybe you don't search properly? This article has been improved numerous times and was approved. I don't see why it should be deleted. This is about the Sakkellarios Pop Stefan. In most sources he is referred to as Pop Stefan or Pop Stefania. As well as Popa Stefan. In American linguistic research he is sometimes referred to as Stefan of Ohrid. He is important for linguists who are specialized in Balkan languages. For the current modern Macedonian language he is important because his texts are the first written texts of a modern Macedonian language dialect. It's notable and there are numerous sources. Mostly written books. Macedonian, Bulgarian, Greek, French, English. From thousands of Wikipedia articles about less known and important individuals this article is seen as a problem? I have been working on it for a year, finally getting approved recently. The OP seems to be having some sort of issue with me when editing on Wikipedia where Aromanians are mentioned. There is a reaction and calls for deletion or merger from the OP on every article which I edited where Aromanians are mentioned. This was the case last year as well. As soon as the articles are approved. Though, the thing is that the Aromanian aspect of these articles are not the main subject. This history and this individual, Pop Stefan, is important for linguistics. Not being Aromanian. I don't understand. I see you are from Romania involved in Aromanian research. That's great, but there are others who research as well. This article was not intended to highlight Aromanians. This individual just happened to be of Aromanian ancestry. It is about the linguistic part which is important. That should be noted. Brooklynlegv (talk) 20:59, 12 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Delete per StephenMacky1's reasoning. ǁǁǁ ǁ Chalk19 (talk) 14:31, 15 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: While there is a rough consensus to Delete this article, given User:Brooklynlegv's comments, it would be helpful to see a source analysis from editors that have the proper language background.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz Read! Talk! 01:33, 18 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  • Keep is what I say. Not just because I created it, but because of it's significance for the modern Macedonian language and the history of Macedonia and the Ohrid region.
There many Macedonian and other international books and other sources who mention Pop Stefan and mention his importance today for the history of the Macedonian language. Well known linguïst and professor Victor A. Friedman has several publications about Pop Stefan and his addition/importance to the modern Macedonian language.
We have Gane Todorovski, Macedonian historian, writer and poet who has written about Pop Stefan and his importance, for the Modern Macedonian language, numerous times. In his words: "Chrysostom (golden-mouthed) Sakkellarios Pop Stefan of Ohrid, presented the Macedonian language to educated Europe.", "The hero of the Macedonia culture, Pop Stefan. This is one of the most modest ways to thank him." Furthermore in his books about the Macedonian language he also writes more about Pop Stefan, his life, his family and his contact with Daniil of Moscopole.
Other writers like Snegarov, Nichev, Kepeski, Lunt, Koneski, Theodor Capidan (dialectul Aroman) as well.
Then there is the book "Nikulcite na novata Makedonska Knizhevnost" by Haralampie Polenakovic, Misla 1973, who wrote "It is known that the Greek material was translated into Macedonian by the Ohrid priest Pop Stefan. For the history of the Macedonian language this text is very significant, because it is also the oldest printed Macedonian text."
There are even Greek sources who realise the significance of Pop Stefan for the modern Macedonian language: "Ωστόσο αυτά τα «βουλγάρικα» του παπά Στέφανου, ήταν η σήμερα θεωρούμενη, από τους ειδικούς γλωσσολόγους, μακεδονική διάλεκτος της περιοχής της Οχρίδας. Και το μέρος αυτό του λεξικού, αποτελεί το πρώτο γνωστό γραπτό μνημείο της μακεδονικής γλώσσας." "The part written in "Bulgarian" is of great importance. This piece was not written by Daniel but by a certain Papa Stefanos who was then living in Ohrid. In his letter dated April 13, 1793 Daniel begs the above known pope to translate the manuscript dictionary into "Bulgarian", to send it by Easter of the same year to be printed in Venice. However, this "Bulgarian" of Papa Stefanos is today considered as the Macedonian dialect of the Ohrid region by expert linguists. And this part of the dictionary is the first known written monument of the Macedonian language".
There is also German research, for example in the "Zeitschrift für Balkanologie" by well known linguist/slavist Norbert Reiter who also wrote about on this subject.
There are many more sources and most are also referenced in the article itself. Pop Stefan and his addition is very important for the Modern Macedonian language. A language which is studied extensively by linguists across the globe. Brooklynlegv (talk) 21:03, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Ultimately this is all about the same thing, his translation of Daniil's dictionary. There's not really much else he could be notable of. All of this can be resumed in: Stefan is considered to have written the first Macedonian text by some authors. That's it. This can be covered easily in the article of the dictionary's main author, Daniel Moscopolites. Super Dromaeosaurus (talk) 21:45, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
You fail to realize the point here. The existence of Pop Stefan's addition is far more important for linguistics, for history of a nation than the whole dictionary published by Daniel. They are two different things. On one hand the dictionary by Daniel to motivate the 'barbarians' to learn Greek and on the other hand a source, a person responsible for a document which is of utmost importance for a (modern) nation, it's existence and it's language. It's a document which gives us insight and proves how they spoke this Macedonian dialect 200+ years ago. It proves that it was a Macedonian dialect and not simply 'Bulgarian'. Most countries have archives and sources and documents and what not. For the Macedonian language that is not the case. For a country like Macedonia and for a language like Macedonian these are the modest treasures for its existence.
I mean, there are articles about which ships blasted their canons first to salute the United States thus recognizing the country. It is minor, but important. For a nation like Macedonia and the Macedonian language, this is a important piece of history. Brooklynlegv (talk) 22:21, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • Issues of article worthiness as never assessed on the merits of importance for a particular nation or country, but on merits of citation. -The Gnome (talk) 12:58, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
  • You're gonna have to back all your claims with sources. Gane Todorovski in his book Книга нашинска сиреч славјанска (page 23, ISBN 9788636901199), which is also cited in the article, literally confirmed that there is no information about him - Автор на македонскиот превод, поп Стефан од Охрид, за кого буквално немаме никакви податоци ... (Author of the Macedonian translation, Pop Stefan from Ohrid, about whom we literally have no information ...). What you wrote also really only confirms that he's only notable for the translation. Authors mentioning him in passing does not indicate any notability. Your contribution is appreciated, but you should find a notable subject next time. I'd also advise you to not make unfounded accusations against other editors. Focus on the content. Thank you. StephenMacky1 (talk) 22:37, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Yet, Gane still managed to write a lot more about Pop Stefan. Not only about the translation, but also about his life, the friendship with Daniel, the connection with Miladinovci and his fondness of Pop Ioan and the importance of Pop Stefan to the Macedonian language. Have you read that as well? Also, I'm not accusing anyone. Brooklynlegv (talk) 08:59, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hey. I was busy with exams. Well, admittedly I don't have full access to Gane's source, however the sources I have full access to and the ones that are cited here do not indicate any notability.
The Contact Hypothesis Revised: DOM in the South Slavic Periphery (p. 67): The Lexicon Tetraglosson is a quadrilingual lexicon of Greek, Albanian, Vlach (Aromanian), and “Bulgarian” (Macedonian dialect of Ohrid) written by Daniel Moscopolites, an Aromanian priest from Moscopole. It is assumed that the Slavic version was translated from Greek by Stefan, an Ohrid priest of Aromanian descent (Nichev, 1997). - Mentions him in passing like most sources and also solely about his translation.
The sources Извори за познавање на старата градска архитектура во Охрид (p. 218) and Зборник на трудови ПРЛИЧЕВАТА „1762 ЛЕТО“ - Симбол на непокорот на Македонецот (p. 11) mention Nikola Pop Stefanija, but not him. So, these sources cannot be used to prove his notability either.
Ив. Снѣгаровъ. Македонски Прегледъ. Година I, книга 4, София, 192. II pp. 55–56: With a letter from 13 April 1793, the Moscopole Sakellarios and priest Daniil informed the Ohrid Sakellarios Pop Stefan (the progenitor of the current Ohrid family, Pop Stefanievi), that he was sending him the Greek dictionary with his student to translate it into Bulgarian within a week, because after Easter he wanted to send it to Venice for printing. At the same time, he asks him to listen to the speech of his parents, so that there is no mistake ... - Simply repeats what other and newer sources know him for - his translation. Koneski, Lunt and Friedman also mention him solely for that reason. StephenMacky1 (talk) 14:49, 26 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.
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