Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Piast Dragon

The following discussion is an archived debate of the proposed deletion of the article below. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was no consensus‎. Feel free to have a discussion on the article talk page about a possible page move. Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:14, 27 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Piast Dragon

[Hide this box] New to Articles for deletion (AfD)? Read these primers!

(Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL)

I just nominated it for deletion on pl wiki (our article is a translation of the pl wiki article). The problem here is major WP:OR (notability is less of a problem based on my BEFORE). The term Piast Dragon, or Polish terms listed on pl wiki, doesn't exist outside Wikipedia. The only semi-relevant and reliable source is Histmag (popular Polish history magazine) written by a minor historian ([1], author is a high school history teacher) on "Dragons and Sword in Polish heraldry". If we had an article on dragons in heraldry, I'd say we can merge the one sentence referneced to it, but since we don't, the best WP:ATD I can think of is to move this to dragons in Polish heraldry combined with 99% TNTing this to a stub-stub (if we remove all other content, with is either unreferenced, or referenced to unreliable sources, or primary ones), leaving just the Histmag ref. The topic may be notable (here's an academic article on dragons in Polish heraldry [2] and I see other relevant literature in my Polish-language GS query [3]) but I think this needs to be written from scratch. To recapitulate, the name of this article (Piast Dragon) is pure OR and 99% of the content here is unreferenced, or referenced to unreliable or primary sources. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:36, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: This discussion has been included in the deletion sorting lists for the following topics: History and Poland. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:36, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: This discussion has been included in the list of Fictional elements-related deletion discussions. WCQuidditch ☎ ✎ 04:12, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Keep. Maybe we should just rename it to something like "Coat of arms of the Duchy of Czersk". I don't believe it should be deleted. It is still a historical symbol, and its clear its a local symbol used in Masovia to this day. Artemis Andromeda (talk) 09:13, 29 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Do we even have a reliable source that the picture or anything discussed in the article is named "Coat of arms of the Duchy of Czersk"? _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 03:37, 30 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Hi, @Piotrus:. There seem to be quite a good amount of sources mentioning this creature/coat of arms. Some even name it "Czersk Dragon". link Artemis Andromeda (talk) 11:22, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
A generic Google Book search? Pass. WP:THEREMAYBESOURCES is not good enough. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:19, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I meant the books within this search, as an example to your claim that there aren't any sources. Artemis Andromeda (talk) 16:21, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for the quotations. The topic of Coat of arms of the Duchy of Czersk might be notable, but I still think the current article, poorly referenced and titled, merits WP:TNT. Aforementioned article can be written from scratch, based on reliable sources. _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 01:50, 1 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Some of the books I was able to find that talk about the topic Artemis Andromeda (talk) 23:45, 31 October 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Pieczęcie książąt mazowieckich - Page 168 Stefan Krzysztof Kuczyński · 1978 "Herb w tej postaci znany jest z pieczęci średniej Janusza II 2 1471 r . z ( nr 74 ) , ale na pieczęci pieszej ... smok naprzemianległe na tarczy czteropolowej ) ; ściślejszy zakres jego panowania określał wizerunek smoka czerskiego"

Folia historiae artium - Volume 11 - Page 30 "wreszcie skrzydlaty smok stanowił godło ziemi czerskiej , jak o tym świadczy pieczęć Ziemowita księcia czersko - mazowieckiego z r . 1343"

Średniowieczne herby polskie - Page 64 Jerzy Łojko · 1985 "herb ziemi czersko-warszawskiej powstał w wyniku połączenia godła dawnej dzielnicy czerskiej ( smok ) z godłem osobistym książąt i zarazem całego Mazowsza ( orzeł )"

Wielki herbarz rodów polskich - Page 86 Andrzej Kulikowski · 2005 "... smok ( prawdopodobnie zielony ) stanowił godło dzielnicy czerskiej , a jego pierwsze wyobrażenie występuje na pieczęci ks ...".

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Commentry on adequacy of sources mentioned would be useful.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Goldsztajn (talk) 02:00, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete per TNT. Start fresh when (if) reliable sources become available. Renata•3 21:37, 6 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: A second opinion from other editors on these newly discovered sources would help a closer come to a reasonable closure.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 01:56, 13 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Delete as unreliable. Someone could re-create a redirect in hopes that someone can eventually find sources. But right now there is nothing to WP:PRESERVE. Shooterwalker (talk) 00:15, 14 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Note: If this article gets deleted, someone should go to Greek Wikipedia and tell them on the talk page of their article (a note in English would be fine), since I doubt anybody from there is following this conversation.Artemis Andromeda (talk) 01:26, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Comment. Pl wiki article got renamed since nobody except Artemis Andromeda participated in discussion there. Well, that's their problem, from our perspective at least, I guess... --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 02:46, 16 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Basically, the name "Piast Dragon" is WP:OR, as well as suggesting that we are dealing with a "Slavic dragon" (my guess: żmij). The latter is nonsensical because żmij was a huge reptile without legs or wings. However, the topic itself is notable. There are several articles about it, such as Wojciech Górczyk's "Traces of the reception of Arthurian legends in the heraldry of the Czersk Piasts and Polish chronicles" ([4]). As you can see from the name, the author clearly suggests that we are dealing with an Arthurian dragon/wyvern. The author also uses terms such as "dragon of Czersk" or "dragon of the dukes of Czersk," or alternatively "coat of arms of the dukes of Czersk," one of which would be a good name for the article. So basically I think the article should be kept under a changed name. As for the content of the article itself and the facts given in it, I am not sure, they need verification.Marcelus (talk) 00:30, 19 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Relisted to generate a more thorough discussion and clearer consensus.
Relisting comment: Final relist. If you believe the article should be renamed, you need to suggest a specific article title or your suggestion is likely to be discounted. Also, do not move an article in the middle of an AFD discussion.
Please add new comments below this notice. Thanks, Liz ^{Read! Talk!} 03:39, 20 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the debate. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as the article's talk page or in a deletion review). No further edits should be made to this page.